"new wave"?

[Rick Bradford]

Im curious -- why the term "new wave"? Where does this come from? I would think most of the stuff that fits into this category is already established as being called "alternative comics".

Also, it seems odd to me because there's already "newave" in the grand UG scheme of things and also because I think of "new wave" as a reference to post-punk music, fashion, etc.

I generally don't worry too much about all of the goofy labels but I just keep thinking about this one...

[Sir Real]

I'd always considered the "newave" moniker another way of saying independents.  IMHO.

[50Cent #II (1st print)]

I thought that Kennedy used the term to describe newer Undergrounds (perhaps from mid 70's to when his guide was published in '82?)

Perhaps anything after Arcade #7, which came out in the Fall of 1976.

[Brother J]

Im curious -- why the term "new wave"? Where does this come from? I would think most of the stuff that fits into this category is already established as being called "alternative comics".

Also, it seems odd to me because there's already "newave" in the grand UG scheme of things and also because I think of "new wave" as a reference to post-punk music, fashion, etc.

I generally don't worry too much about all of the goofy labels but I just keep thinking about this one...

I always thought of the mini's as the newave stuff. As for "new wave" on this board, it should probably be the combined newave, but I didn't think about it too much. The term new wave for music supposedly came from some crappy K-Tel music compilation back in the day and it stuck. At least that's what Elvis Costello said on an interview disc I own.

[Reverend]

Who's to say for sure? But I do think the term should be spelled the way that Kennedy spelled it in the title of his guide: newave.

[over40artist]

I've never liked the term "newave" and Kennedy planned to get rid of it in his never-released update.

I'm not thrilled with the term "alternative," either, but it has widespread acceptance so I can live with it. I prefer "small press" for all the minis and xerox and laser-printed stuff, and "independent" for the thousands of comic book publishers who aren't mainstream, led by publishers like Fantagraphics, Drawn & Quarterly, Dark Horse, Starhead, Top Cow, etc.

The fact that "New Wave" is even used as a category on this site is embarrassing. The fact that it includes only comics from 1993 appears to be arbitrary. Are we claiming that all those great independent comics in the 1980s like Neat Stuff, Love and Rockets, Yummy Fur, etc. are actually underground?

At the very least, this category should be renamed "Alternative" or "Independent" and the date should be rolled back to 1980 (when Raw launched) or 1982 (when Love and Rockets launched). If that's too early for you, then maybe 1985, when Neat Stuff launched. At least then I would feel comfortable talking about the greatness of comics like Neat Stuff (which stopped publishing in 1989) or Raw (which stopped publishing in 1990).

[Rick Bradford]

I second renaming it "Alternative" but I'd leave the date off altogether. When it comes right down to it almost any date is arbitrary. Let the masses put their post where they feel it fits. If admin thinks it blatantly belongs elsewhere they can always move it. Either that or at least make the date less arbitrary than 1993.

"Newave" was popularized -- if not coined -- by Clay Geerdes in his newsletters and columns. He had reasoning for such -- I know I've read it but can't remember the specifics.

But my curiosity didn't have anything to do with defending "newave" or keeping it pure or anything. It just seems silly to call any "regular" comics "new wave". This part of the forums isn't about the newaves (Kennedy/Geerdes sense) because we've got another one called "Minis".

So I guess it's just that I don't believe I've ever heard a single person refer to these comics as "new wave". In the circles I've frequented they're alternatives -- and "independents" ("indie") tends to be used for the non-mainstream types of comics publishers that would be mainstream if they had the money and popularity. In fact, a lot of those books in recent years have been labeled as part of the "new mainstream" -- accessible, somewhat middle-of-the-road stuff backed by a small publisher.

[over40artist]

Good insight that improves my explanation, Rick.

How would you categorize small press based on your definition of independent? There seems to be a gray area between the two.

Given that alternative is widely accepted and I grudgingly accept it as well, would you agree with these definitions from an underground comics knowledge base:

Alternative: The big boys of non-mainstream comics, starring the key publisher of the genre, Fantagraphics, supported by Dark Horse, Drawn & Quarterly and several others.

Independent: The smaller publishers in the non-mainstream, from Starhead and Slave Labor to Vortex and Aardvark-Vanaheim. Or are these guys still considered alternative? I'm sure you can provide many other publishers that would fit this category better than those I have mentioned.

Small Press: The print-on-demand crowd and neighborhood publishers, which put out some fine comics that cannot find support from traditional comic book publishing companies.

Personally, I prefer to blend the Alt and Indie scenes together, since they are all conventional publishers, but some are much bigger than others. It seems easier to draw the line between those guys and the small press publishers, who operate on shoestring budgets and distribute primarily through personal networking, comic cons and the internet.

Didn't Clay Geerdes believe that newave was a way to categorize comic book creators in the mid-to-late 1970s who operated in the spirit of the underground (because they did not fit in the mainstream mold at all) but could not (or did not want to) enter the Rip Off/Kitchen Sink clique? Newave creators wanted to separate themselves from the "old school" UG creators who spoke for a different generation with a different agenda and even different politics.

[50Cent #II (1st print)]

Isn't anything mainstream that isn't DC or Marvel called Independant, applying it to the UG culture would probably be confusing?

[Reverend]

Don't forget, there is still a faction of people who like to refer to particular subject matter as underground, regardless of its publication date.

[Rick Bradford]

How would you categorize small press based on your definition of independent? There seems to be a gray area between the two.

Well, heh, it depends on what you mean by "small press". The b&w, non-mainstream books from small publishers? There's also a large faction in mini-comics that calls mini-comics "small press" (these are mostly folks who either came from the fanzine heyday or are otherwise mostly influenced by mainstream comics old and new).

Given that alternative is widely accepted and I grudgingly accept it as well, would you agree with these definitions from an underground comics knowledge base:

I hesitate to agree with many labels, really. There's such a wide scope and context is everything.

Alternative: The big boys of non-mainstream comics, starring the key publisher of the genre, Fantagraphics, supported by Dark Horse, Drawn & Quarterly and several others.

Mostly, yes. I'm always torn on Dark Horse because they've gotten much closer to mainstream in the sense that their money seems to come from licensed properties (Star Wars, Aliens). They do publish the odd book that I'd think of as "alternative" but so do Marvel and DC (a good example of why the labels are never fully seaworthy).

Independent: The smaller publishers in the non-mainstream, from Starhead and Slave Labor to Vortex and Aardvark-Vanaheim. Or are these guys still considered alternative? I'm sure you can provide many other publishers that would fit this category better than those I have mentioned.

See, I'd consider Starhead, A-V and Vortex as alternative. When pressed, I actually tend to think of Starhead as a mini-comics publisher that's managed to put out a nice selection of mini-comics that happen to look like "regular" comics (which is not intended as a denigration in any way).

"Independent", to me, is Strangers in Paradise (for example) and many of the comics that are either aimed at or do particularly well with a female audience and other readers who aren't typically comics readers. This is part of that "New Mainstream" I mentioned earlier -- comics content not unlike what people are used to in television and movies.

I think independent also describes mainstream-style books (usually superhero or other established genres) that aren't published by the big publishers. Think mid-'90s Image wannabe publishers.

Small Press: The print-on-demand crowd and neighborhood publishers, which put out some fine comics that cannot find support from traditional comic book publishing companies.

Haha, believe it or not, I tend to think of the POD books as mini-comics a lot of the time.

Remember when I said there's so much context involved? Well, for me there is anyway. Everything's a gut feeling. Which, of course, doesn't help anybody in terms of documentation.

Didn't Clay Geerdes believe that newave was a way to categorize comic book creators in the mid-to-late 1970s who operated in the spirit of the underground (because they did not fit in the mainstream mold at all) but could not (or did not want to) enter the Rip Off/Kitchen Sink clique? Newave creators wanted to separate themselves from the "old school" UG creators who spoke for a different generation with a different agenda and even different politics.

I think that does about sum it up. I wish I could find someplace where he wrote about it. I'm sure if I dug through everything I could come up with it but I'm not able to do that at the moment. But, yeah, I think that was basically the gist of it. At some point Clay changed the name of his operations (and his newsletter) from Comix World to Comix Wave and I think that move was related.

But, hey, I was looking through one of Clay's early newsletters (early or mid '70s) the other day and he'd written about defining "alternative comix". And Kennedy included the groundlevels even though many of those were as far removed from UGs as they were mainstream comics. Labels just sort of suck.

[Rick Bradford]

Oh my, that post is long. Sorry about that.

[over40artist]

Well, it's not so much that I am in love with labels, either, but I think of it as categorization for the purpose of organizing a library or a web site. For that purpose, grouping of like comic genres makes it easier to drill down to get what you want. And there is something disconcerting about having "Black Hole" next to "Black and White Comics." That association seems to taint the greatness that each of them has earned within their own distinct era.

In other words, if you gotta break it down somehow, then how do you break it down?

By the way, I do agree with those that believe mini-comics fall under the umbrella of small press publishing, as do POD comics and fanzines. I think mini-comics have earned their own category to some degree, but the very definition of mini-comics has become so diverse that it is easier to include them as a sub-category of small press.

[human]

Some support for the terms Alternative and Newave referring to the Mid '70's to '88 argument.

[human]

Oops, I mean here.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/comics/027002-8600-e.html