Zap #2 1st print?

[artystyc]

 Does any one Know if the staple Distance on Zap #2 is a tell for 1st print. I have 4 copy's with .50 covers. None of them have the off page head first, one seems to be over corrected(High on the Page)? 2 of them have the top staple 2 1/2" down, and the other 2 have the top staple 1 5/8" down. Is this like #4? where one staple is 1st print? Does someone have the first print with the crooked "head first" that could measure the staples. Also, one book has the full page Rick Griffin Drawing "AMA" Very Faint, This one also seems to have a thicker cover stock. While The other three all have Dark prints of "AMA"? Any Input would be appreciated?

[oldmilwaukee6er]

a staple distance tell has not been established for Zap #2 like has been suggested (via Apex Novelties Donahue) for Zap #4. 

however it is now believed that the book likely underwent multiple 50c printings where certainly the cover stock varies, and the staple distance likely does as well.  that being said, a 2&1/2 v 1&5/8 distance is perhaps more odd... versus Zap #4 (and perhaps #3), where the number is 2&5/16 v 2&11/16.

the best way to flesh this out is to measure staple distance (1/16") from the top of the book to the top of the top staple, along with a cover thickness measurement (micrometer) for dozens of 50c Zap Comix 2-4 and begin to see if the data tells you anything. 

but there is some more reading in the following two threads on the topic (if you like): 
**IIT/50c's ZAP #2**

**A discussion on micrometers/calipers...**

[oldmilwaukee6er]

by the way... WELCOME to the BOARDS!

[50Cent #II (1st print)]

This is what my findings came up with, staple distance is a sign, but not definite (I have 5 true first prints and they vary by about an inch).  The first prints had the widest distance between staples on average of all that I examined.


(Copy of the Zap Comix #2 findings released at the 2007 San Diego Comic Con follows.)

Zap Comix #2 copyright (June/July?) 1968 (first printed by Print Mint) containing work by R. Crumb and early or first published comix work by S. Clay Wilson, Victor Moscoso and Rick Griffin.

As per "the Official Underground and Newave Comix Price Guide" by Jay Kennedy (1957-2008), published in the Summer of 1982:
"As of April 1982 there are 17 Print Mint printings for a total of 325,000 copies, plus an unknown number of printings and copies prior to the Print Mint's first printing in February of 1969."  Stated by Don Donahue (one of the original printers of Robert Crumb's Zap and other comix) on 23 March 2007 in an e-mail quoted below, there was no prior printings or copies (by Apex Novelties) prior to Print Mint's printings.  This Kennedy statement should now be believed to be an error.  The est. 325,000 copies as of April 1982 does not include at least 4 known later printings that have $2.50, $2.95, $3.95 & $4.95 cover prices.

1st print (w/ .50 cent cover price) - will have the heavier matt stock cover paper (approx. 70lbs. stock) and the "Head First" will be offset downward by error towards the bottom of the page & may be slightly tilted:
http://www.mindscapemedia.com/zap2/Zap2.htm (there is no blue in the white spot of the distal cheek).
The staples should be about 5.4" apart (the widest of the .50 cent cover price printings I've encountered) and the top staple is about 1.8" from the top edge of the book, this places the top of the upper staple at approx. the level of the top of the "A" in the "ADULTS ONLY!!" and the center of the top staple at approx. the empty space under "ONLY!!", and the lower staple about 1.6" from the bottom edge.  (1.8"= 46mm, 5.4"= 137mm, 1.6"=41mm)
Paper thickness averages 0.105 – 0.139 mm. (update: staples greatly vary on this printing.)
(Approx. 500 copies of Zap Comix #2 (1st print) to have been released for the Zap show opening (July? 1968) of the est. 5,000 printed, remaining guts of the original printing (approx. 4,500) was thrown out do to the immediately discovered error.  This makes this issue probably the scarcist/rarest Zap released.) 
Paper thickness approx.: 0.105 - 0.115 mm / 0.115 – 0.120 mm / 0.133 – 0.139 mm.

This "Head First" downward offset error tell was first realized by ComicWiz from a post on 22 March 2007.
"I looked at one of the copies I owned and noticed how the Head First strip was cut-off. This was a complete coincidence because I actually had opened two books in the same spot to compare page quality. I thought that it was somewhat strange at the time because I wasn't able to find another copy like it from the copies I already owned. I passed it off as one of the flaws with manual cut and assembly in production.
Then I came across a seller who had some undergrounds in an eBay listing. They were primarily first prints. I purchased the entire lot and communicated with him afterwards to pick-up some other books he hadn't included in the first eBay batch. One of which was a Zap 2. We agreed to deal privately on that book rather than have him list it on eBay.
When I got that book, I found the second instance of the Head First tell. That is when I started to first seriously consider it as a tell.
...the one consistent thing about the whole process of determining the tell is that the Head First strip copies all had heavier cover stock (CGC's treatment and grade on the slabbed copy I own confirms this)." 
From the CPG (ComicsPriceGuide.com) forums Underground Comics forum.

According to Don Donahue in an e-mail dated 23 March 2007:
"... Your question prompted me to do some research in my files (and my memory) and I now believe that I can tell you what a true 2nd printing is.  You're the first person to receive this information...
By the way, I never printed any copies of Zap #2.  I was just starting to do some work on the cover when The Print Mint took over as publisher.  They farmed out the printing to a company called Cal Litho.
The first printing (or, if you prefer, the first state or version of the first printing) is, of course, the one that has "Head First" coming off the page.  The weight of the cover stock ranges from slightly heavier than "regular" to a lot heavier than "regular."
The 2nd printing (or the corrected version of the first) has covers identical in every way to those of the uncorrected version, with the same range of weights.  It was the same batch of covers.  The staples are about 4 3/16" apart and the top staple is about 2 5/16" from the top edge of the book.  (How come you guys never use staple distances as a way of identifying printings? Bruce Seamans came up with that idea 20 years ago.)
The initial printing probably consisted of 5,000 copies.  5,000 perfectly good covers were printed and used. 5,000 copies of the "guts" (interior pages) were printed which were laid out wrong and had to be thrown away (except for the ones that were used).  As I recall, the problem with the guts was noticed immediately as soon as the books started getting bound, but there was going to be a Zap show opening at an art gallery in San Francisco and copies were needed immediately.  I think that maybe as few as 500 of the uncorrected copies were bound up."
2nd print (w/ .50 cent cover price) - will have the heavier matt stock cover paper as the 1st print (same cover printing), but the "Head First" offset error will be corrected. The staples are now "about 4 3/16" apart and the top staple is about 2 5/16" from the top edge of the book".  (There is no blue in the white spot on the distal cheek.)  This places the top staple at about the level of "NO.2".  (Est. 4,500 print run using good covers from the 1st printing.) "5,000 good covers and 5,000 of the fucked-up guts were printed. 500 books were bound with fucked-up guts, leaving 4,500 good covers. The rest of the bad guts were trashed, the error was fixed and 4,500 of the corrected guts were printed to go with the 4,500 good covers. So the "1st printing" was 500 copies and the "2nd printing" was 4,500. The figures are, of course, estimates." Don Donahue via e-mail 14 April 2007.  Paper thickness approx.: 0.105-0.110 mm on my only copy (up to 0.120mm).
3rd print (w/ .50 cent cover price) (probably includes multiple printings) - will have the similar slightly heavier matt stock paper cover as the first print, but the staples will be approx. 5" apart and the top staple is about 1.6" - 1.7" from the top edge of the book.  This places the top staple at about centered with the level of the "O" in "ONLY!!".  (All issues from here on seem to have some blue in the white spot on the distal cheek of the cover character.)  Most of the matt cover issues (printings) fell under this category with some variations in staple placement and distance apart (of approx. 5"), since it's unlikely to determine chronological order of printing on this alone and the probable use of multiple binding (stapling) machines, I lump them all into this printing (I've found a copy that has staple placement similar to 2nd print, but not exact, but does contain the blue in the white spot on distal cheek).  Paper thickness approx.: 0.081- 0.099 mm.
4th print (w/ .50 cent cover price) – Glossy cover stock with no cover tell (stated on the 5th print).  Examined 1 copy of this at the SDCC 2007 (Arnie "GoodDr" signed by R. Crumb '89 and S. Clay Wilson).
5th print (w/ .50 cent cover price) - will have the thinner glossy stock cover paper (approx. 60lbs. stock).  A "tell", a blue dot (with a black dot inside) is apparent in the black near the top of the exclamation point/mark on the cover "Boing!".  Also, the pinks and dark pinks appear slightly more magenta and the blacks appear darker/richer.   The staples are about 4.75" apart and the top staple is about 1.7" from the top edge of the book (about centered with the "O" in "ONLY!!".  http://boards.collectors-society.com/attachments//1662976-Zap2second.jpg  Paper thickness approx.: 0.087- 0.090 mm.
6th print (w/ .50 cent cover price) – (theoretically could have been printed before the 5th print, but for likelihood and ease have selected after the 5th print.) I've examined one copy that appeared to have the glossy "tell" of the blue dot in the exclamation point/mark but printed on a matt paper.  Staple positioning appeared to be similar to the 3rd printing.  I cannot be positive of this as I didn't purchase the copy. (Hi-De-Ho)
7th print (w/ .50 cent cover price) – appears to be matt stock, blue dot in exclamation point/mark is apparent under close examination, but has now been covered with black ink.  (Geoffrey's)
8th print - will have a .75 cent cover price. ("tell" no longer visible.)  There may have been at least two printing as I've seen issues with the upper staple in two different locations (by the "ADULTS ONLY!!" or above & by the "NO.2").
9th print - will have a $1.00 cover price. (17 printings by April 1982, all following printed after).
10th print – will have a $2.50 cover price (not in Fogel's Underground Comix Price Guide).
11th print - will have a $2.95 cover price.
12th print - will have a $3.95 cover price.
13th print – will have a $4.95 cover price (not in Fogel's Underground Comix Price Guide).
13 of the known (at least) 21 printings.
(NEW INFO.) Only about 500 copies of the first print of Zap Comix #2 being bound and released for the Zap show opening, of the original 5,000 printed, the rest unbound being thrown away and then a 2nd printing of 4,500 new issues being printed soon after with the staple placement "about 4 3/16" apart and the top staple is about 2 5/16" from the top edge of the book".  This would make the first printing of Zap #2 rarer than Zap #0 (1st print) with 5,000 printed (NM=$1,000), Zap #1 (2nd Donahue print) with est. 5,000 printed (NM=$500), Zap #1 (1st Plymell print) with est. 3,500 printed (NM=$8,000), or even Snatch #1 (1st print) with 800 copies printed (NM=$1,000).  The 2nd print has the same thicker stock cover of the first and 4,500 copies were printed (same covers from 1st printing).

[artystyc]

Thanks for the Info,  one has no Blue in the Cheek and 5 1/2" between the staples, the rest all have the blue in the cheek

[50Cent #II (1st print)]

As far as I could find, the first two don't have blue in the white spot on the cheek of the 50 cent cover price printings.

[artystyc]

 Looks like I need to pick up a Micrometer! Thanks for the Detailed info. I was wondering why that Beat-up copy just sold so high on Ebay. Makes sense now, Thanks

[50Cent #II (1st print)]

If you're looking for one, this one looks nice.  I would contact this seller...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ZAP-2-R-CRUMB-GRIFFIN-TRUE-HEAVY-STOCK-1ST-ED-RARE_W0QQitemZ290199196174QQihZ019QQcategoryZ3979QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[over40artist]

Looks like I need to pick up a Micrometer! Thanks for the Detailed info. I was wondering why that Beat-up copy just sold so high on Ebay. Makes sense now, Thanks

Yeah, that would've been me that bought that beat-up copy for such a high price. I guess I was romanced by 50C's research that indicates there were only 500 copies of the "uncorrected" true first print.

No regrets....

[oldmilwaukee6er]

yeah...
zap comix #2 1st heads first is my 2nd priority this year, so if anybody unloads an undercopy. 

i would appreciate a "heads first."   

would love one that would pull CGC/PGX 8.0 VF or better and i suppose i am ready to pay   

[gump]

50Cent -- The book in that auction didn't get any bids. Does that indicate too high of a starting price, or something else?

[50Cent #II (1st print)]

I don't think so, it was in pretty nice condition, I think it might have to do with one being won a short time before, but I'm not sure...