http://cgi.ebay.com/ZAP-Comix-1-R-CRUMB-1st-Print-RARE-COMIC_W0QQitemZ250192570075QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3979QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Jason
well, all I can say is that unless I stumble across a copy of this somewhere where someone has no idea what it is worth, I guess I will never own a Plymell. No way am I ever going to pay $2,000 for a comic book.
I'm gonna side with the Brother on this one. These "Holy Grails" are beyond my meager reach. At least thats what my wife tells me.
To me a Plymell Zap is the most over rated comix ever.
Jason
Over rated or not, it is commanding premium prices.
I had a chance to buy one signed by Robert Crumb and Charles Prymell for less than the one that sold on eBay, I passed.
Jason
If it was 5.0 or greater, you goofed badly on the $$$$igned one.
And why is it over rated? It is commonly accepted as the major ug. ANd it is Crumb( who is not Corben) whose art sells for $100k.
Sorry Jason, but Zap #1 changed the comic book industry forevermore. While there were predecessors in underground history, none of them came even close to having the impact of Zap #1. In fact, a strong case can be made that the Plymell Zap is still the most undervalued and underrated comic book in history, primarily due to the collective ignorance of traditional comic book collectors.
Jay Kennedy had it right in his introduction to his Guide: "Zap #1 was the book that inspired so many other artists to their own comix, and in so doing, started the entire comix field rolling." He goes on to talk about God Nose, Adventures of Jesus, Das Kampf and Lenny of Laredo, as well as Help!, Car Toons and adult magazines, but concludes that "These outlets printed unusual comic strips and panels, but it remained for Zap #1 to launch the underground comix book format as a new medium."
Many other comic book historians recognize the revolutionary impact of Zap #1. And what did that revolution lead to? Well, it led to every alternative and small press comic book published thereafter, and it even changed the course of superhero comic book history, which gradually introduced more mature themes and emotion-based stories as the success of the underground and alternative comics expanded over the years.
God Nose, Das Kampf, Lenny of Laredo and Adventures of Jesus would never have punched the comic book industry in the kisser the way Zap #1 did. In fact, they would probably never have been reprinted if it wasn't for Zap #1.
Zap #1 was the comic book that shattered the notion (and the limitations) of what a comic book could be, and I wouldn't be collecting comic books today if those limitations had not been broken.
Would some other comic book have done what Zap #1 did if Zap #1 had never appeared? Maybe. But there is no guarantee that some other comic book would have had the same impact if they were published before Zap #1. And for the most part, Zap #1 inspired almost all of the legendary underground comic creators to push forward with their dreams of breaking the stale mold of traditional comic books. Sure, they might have done it anyway, but Zap #1 gave them the courage and confidence to actually go through with it.
And even if they didn't need Zap to go through with those dreams, the fact remains that Zap #1 beat them to the punch, came out first, and will always be recognized as the one that unleashed a revolution.
1. I offered you that book Arnold and you passed on it.
2. I am not a huge fan of Crumb.
3. Do you know how many reprints there are of Zap? Do you know how many copies I could buy from Last Gasp today for 3g?
There are tons of Underground Comix that will never see what is printed in them again anywhere but the original and only print. The fact that Zap has been reprinted so many times slaughters its value in my opinion because the only thing you are paying for is a name on the back cover, nothing more.
Slice it anyway you want but with that book, it's all the same to me.
Jason
ps. Now don't go saying you only collect first prints or first prints are best because first prints are best! I always go for collecting the first print and it is important to me but I am really on the fence when it comes to shelling out thousands for something I can buy from the newsstands today. Again, even books that have been reprinted several times the material inside is rarer than what is in Zap. Slice it how you want, you are paying for a name...
I'm with most of you guys here, unless I find it for a real good deal someday, I will never own a copy. its value to me is nothing more than bragging rights and you will find out real quick on some of this stuff that the people who drive up the prices are 8-10 times the people who own it and not the people who want it.
I mean look at that guy who has the 9.CGC joke copy, what is he asking like 30g? :01_spit:
If you collect just to read and you don't care about condition or edition, fine. That's old school like when I started. But reality is that people collect 1st editions of everything. Look what people pay for 1st editions of books. If they can afford it, they pay for it. But, when did you offer me the book and what was the price and grade? Did I goof by ignoring the signatures. I just don't remember the offer. I once turned down a vf Superman 1 for $5k in the days, So errors can be made.
Quote from: dr_s on December 05, 2007, 10:38:49 AM
If you collect just to read and you don't care about condition or edition, fine. That's old school like when I started. But reality is that people collect 1st editions of everything. Look what people pay for 1st editions of books. If they can afford it, they pay for it. But, when did you offer me the book and what was the price and grade? Did I goof by ignoring the signatures. I just don't remember the offer. I once turned down a vf Superman 1 for $5k in the days, So errors can be made.
Again... Reprinting kill the book IMO.
I sent you multiple pictures of that book about a year ago. Personally on a book like that I think the signatures detract from the value of the book and that is one of the reasons I did not buy it, that and the cost.
Jason
QuoteI sent you multiple pictures of that book about a year ago. Personally on a book like that I think the signatures detract from the value of the book and that is one of the reasons I did not buy it, that and the cost.
I agree on signed copies. Artwork should be signed. Newer reprints, maybe. But the first prints, naw- leave 'em pristine or do a loose attachment/ insert. My 1-1/4 cents.
I guess you're right, reprints really killed the value of 1st eds of Mark twain, Shakespare, Harry Potter, James Bond, Zap 1, etc. As for the Zap 1, at my age I must be getting senile. I have no idea as to why I can't remember it other than senility.. In any case, what was the condition and the price. Maybe that is why I rejected it and don''t remember. I really don't recall the autographs, since that would have made a positive difference. By the way, Heritage and Steve geppi take off for autographs. Writing on the book. Other people want them and pay a premium. I have paid for autographed copies for myself but would not get an expensive book autographed. (Although I did have Frank Stack autograph an Adventures of Jay to prove that it was real.) On cheap books, autographs make the vg books sell better.
This auction got by me, goes to show there are still some out there waiting to be discovered. Should have figured who the winner was though. To be able to spend a day in his collection...
Quote from: dr_s on December 05, 2007, 01:56:01 PM
I guess you're right, reprints really killed the value of 1st eds of Mark twain, Shakespare, Harry Potter, James Bond, Zap 1, etc. As for the Zap 1, at my age I must be getting senile. I have no idea as to why I can't remember it other than senility.. In any case, what was the condition and the price. Maybe that is why I rejected it and don''t remember. I really don't recall the autographs, since that would have made a positive difference. By the way, Heritage and Steve geppi take off for autographs. Writing on the book. Other people want them and pay a premium. I have paid for autographed copies for myself but would not get an expensive book autographed. (Although I did have Frank Stack autograph an Adventures of Jay to prove that it was real.) On cheap books, autographs make the vg books sell better.
I'm sorry that you are missing the point here. I am not saying that first prints are not wonderful or a desire to own, I am simply trying to state there are much rarer books, with limited print runs, that where NEVER reprinted. Meaning you either have the first print or you don't have the material period.
Jason
Ps. The Zap was 2 to 3 grand, the condition was 5 or better if you are going by that hog wash scale.
At 2k I don't know why I would have passed. At 3k, I would be buying for resale and that would have been marginal. From Jan to Oct I went on a squandering spree and may have been tapped out for marginal profit items. I still don't remember. (which is bad on my part) I must have overlooked the autograph part however. That would have had an influence. As for condition, if you are buying for other than reading purposes, which in many cases is enough, then the difference between a cgc 5 and a cgc 6 makes a big difference for resale. SInce I have 5 Zap 1s already, I don't buy new ones for reading.
P.s. Your stuff will go out today or Friday.
P,p.s If you want to continue this zap discussion, I won't bore the others, you can pm or call and bs for an hour. Love Arnie
Quote from: dr_s on December 05, 2007, 03:53:36 PM
At 2k I don't know why I would have passed. At 3k, I would be buying for resale and that would have been marginal. From Jan to Oct I went on a squandering spree and may have been tapped out for marginal profit items. I still don't remember. (which is bad on my part) I must have overlooked the autograph part however. That would have had an influence. As for condition, if you are buying for other than reading purposes, which in many cases is enough, then the difference between a cgc 5 and a cgc 6 makes a big difference for resale. SInce I have 5 Zap 1s already, I don't buy new ones for reading.
P.s. Your stuff will go out today or Friday.
P,p.s If you want to continue this zap discussion, I won't bore the others, you can pm or call and bs for an hour. Love Arnie
Yeah it even came with a hand written letter from Charles Prymell about it. Maybe this will spark your brain a little but it had a pot burn on the front over and in the letter Charles had reflected about it. Either way, it's gone...
Ok, Arnold... Thank You.
Yeah I will give you a call once the books arrive.
Best,
Jason
At least in my end term stupor I know that I am not crazy. A comic with a stain on the cover would not sexually arouse me to the point of $2k. With a stain I would say it was a 2-3. I didn't buy neatsuff's burnt ones for $1k and know that I would not have bought this one. Although, I still worry that at 108 I seem to be forgetting things too easily,
:glasses9:
well... i bought a burned Plymell straight from Donahue (that was held back from the Neatstuff deal) because i felt it was the only way that i would be able to afford the book. that is why i first began inquiring after salvaged Zaps. this auction is testimony to the demand that continues to drive this book's value.
See to me that is just stupid and I mean no offense to you directly for my comments. I just don't get why anyone in their right mind would buy a comic that was knowingly damage when I'm sure you have a reprint or access to what's inside. I mean this to me is a case of those hats you see at "The Gap" or some other yuppie joint. There come new but looks like they have been worn for years or pre-ripped jeans... I mean why in the hell would people buy clothes like? Shit when my clothes get like that I throw them the hell away!
Crazy!!
<--- Is getting old.
Jason
Ee-gawds, Jason. This isn't a damaged comix. This is a piece of history. It's like owning a piece of the Berlin Wall (http://www.berlin-wall.net/orderform.htm) (its a piece of concrete), or a lump of Trinitite (http://www.unitednuclear.com/trinitite.htm) (its a rock).
:01_bitchslap:
Actually, Jason, you have been taken over by the spirit of a mother who threw out all the comics of someone who would be a millionaire today if he was an orphan. The best way you can cure this curse is to win the lottery and squander on comics. The old lady will pull out of you and melt before your eyes. (See the end of Tin Man) Love Doc
P.S. Today is my younger son's birthday. He read Cherry Poptart when he was 2. (He is 78) We are visiting him at Attica over the weekend to celebrate.
:love4: :love10: :glasses9: ...mmm, toasty.
(https://headcomix.info/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv688%2Foldmilwaukee6er%2Fth_myzap1_plymell.jpg&hash=4c39794af3155c42c78bcc615c95a5f5b51a986c) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v688/oldmilwaukee6er/myzap1_plymell.jpg)(https://headcomix.info/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv688%2Foldmilwaukee6er%2Fth_plymell2_electricbugaloo.jpg&hash=9d57b1a6ad6f525e01818f92592cc7030bf8bc8f) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v688/oldmilwaukee6er/plymell2_electricbugaloo.jpg)
Call it how you like but my thoughts are still the same.
This isn't the Liberty Bell people!
Jason
ps.
Quote from: Sir Real on December 11, 2007, 03:42:06 PM
Ee-gawds, Jason. This isn't a damaged comix. This is a piece of history. It's like owning a piece of the Berlin Wall (http://www.berlin-wall.net/orderform.htm) (its a piece of concrete), or a lump of Trinitite (http://www.unitednuclear.com/trinitite.htm) (its a rock).
:01_bitchslap:
It's funny you put it that way because like I have mention (I think) on here before... I am a big horror movie fan as well and I remember being at a convention and I recall correctly it was Gunner Hansen who was selling like soil in vials or something from some part in the movie where Texas Chainsaw Massacre was shot... Please. Give me a fucking break already!
"Plaster casts of Trina's navel $2.95"
Quote from: Comix Junky on December 12, 2007, 01:07:21 PM
"Plaster casts of Trina's navel - $2"
Is that minus $2, where she has to pay me? If so, sign me up!
Jason
No. I like Trina.
And i remembered it wrong.
It should be $2.95
From Tales From Berkly-con:
http://headcomix.info/wiki/doku.php?id=thumbs:t:tales-from-the-berkely-con.jpg
Yeah she ok I suppose.
Jason
Yeah, whatever.
What i'm saying is,
Your dealer selling Texas Chainsaw soil,
reminds me of this dealer selling "Yellow Dog poo... .50/lb.":mut:
http://headcomix.info/wiki/doku.php?id=thumbs:t:tales-from-the-berkely-con.jpg
Still breaks me up. :lol:
I know who bought it. He knows what he is doing. SO hogwash or not, it was a good deal. I would have been interested if I could have seen it in person. Unless it is cgced, I must see it in person or be buying it from someone I really know, who will give me right of return.
Quote from: Comix Junky on December 12, 2007, 10:07:13 PM
Yeah, whatever.
What i'm saying is,
Your dealer selling Texas Chainsaw soil,
reminds me of this dealer selling "Yellow Dog poo... .50/lb.":mut:
http://headcomix.info/wiki/doku.php?id=thumbs:t:tales-from-the-berkely-con.jpg
Still breaks me up. :lol:
Yeah that is a great cover and about the size of it.
Jason
Quote from: dr_s on December 13, 2007, 02:01:39 AM
I know who bought it. He knows what he is doing. SO hogwash or not, it was a good deal. I would have been interested if I could have seen it in person. Unless it is cgced, I must see it in person or be buying it from someone I really know, who will give me right of return.
Are we back to the signed Zap now or???
Jason
There can be only 1 of 2 explanations for your sticking to your view of underground values etc. First, you can be putting us on. Saying anything to get people to bite. I do that occasionally. Like when I pretended to question the use of cunt. Then I sat back and enjoyed it when people were telling me one could curse. Then they tried to shock me with covers, lol. The other can be best explained by an analogy. Everyone has played basketball when they were young. We were all less than 5 feet tall and played what we thought was the real game However, as we got older the game changed. If you can't play above the rim, you are not playing real ball. Most of us can not play the real game because we are not tall enough or athletic enough or have other life choices. Your comments are like the person playing pee-wee ball. If that is what you like, then good. If you can't drop $1 or $2k a year on your collection, welcome to the club. Reprints, low grades, finding a Zap 1 in a flea market are great. I don't knock it and did that before I came into some money. But when people talk about the pro game, don't let you experiences cloud your mind. There are people who have $$$ and play above the rim. In that game, condition, 1st prints and unfortunately slabbing are part of the game. I am on the edge of that game. I can't compete with the really big guys, but I understand the rules and try to deal with them. I am resigned to the fact that, except for reprints, I may never get a first print Das Kampf or more important to me a Walt Disney Comics and Stories 1 You just make comments that show that you are playing on a young amateur level. When I said that I won't plunk down $$$ based on some stranger's word that his book is a 4 or a 6 or a 9.2 unless the book is slabbed or I see it first, that's because I'm not stupid. I already had someone offer me a 9.2 $$$ book this week that could be a 6 or less. By the way, were you vistitor Q? Remember, when you post, your words reflect you. If you make opinionated uniformed remarks, unless you are trying to get a rise out of people, it makes you look like an amateur wannabee. You are better than that and I still love you.
P.S. . I am responding to the autographed comments, what does that have to do with buying graded books and why did you bring it up? I only own 3 slabbed books all bought for long term investment and more or less low prices.
P.P.S. What early 50s comic book character predicted slabbing and comics as an investment?
Quote from: dr_s on December 13, 2007, 12:21:13 PM
There can be only 1 of 2 explanations for your sticking to your view of underground values etc. First, you can be putting us on. Saying anything to get people to bite. I do that occasionally. Like when I pretended to question the use of cunt. Then I sat back and enjoyed it when people were telling me one could curse. Then they tried to shock me with covers, lol. The other can be best explained by an analogy. Everyone has played basketball when they were young. We were all less than 5 feet tall and played what we thought was the real game However, as we got older the game changed. If you can't play above the rim, you are not playing real ball. Most of us can not play the real game because we are not tall enough or athletic enough or have other life choices. Your comments are like the person playing pee-wee ball. If that is what you like, then good. If you can't drop $1 or $2k a year on your collection, welcome to the club. Reprints, low grades, finding a Zap 1 in a flea market are great. I don't knock it and did that before I came into some money. But when people talk about the pro game, don't let you experiences cloud your mind. There are people who have $$$ and play above the rim. In that game, condition, 1st prints and unfortunately slabbing are part of the game. I am on the edge of that game. I can't compete with the really big guys, but I understand the rules and try to deal with them. I am resigned to the fact that, except for reprints, I may never get a first print Das Kampf or more important to me a Walt Disney Comics and Stories 1 You just make comments that show that you are playing on a young amateur level. When I said that I won't plunk down $$$ based on some stranger's word that his book is a 4 or a 6 or a 9.2 unless the book is slabbed or I see it first, that's because I'm not stupid. I already had someone offer me a 9.2 $$$ book this week that could be a 6 or less. By the way, were you vistitor Q? Remember, when you post, your words reflect you. If you make opinionated uniformed remarks, unless you are trying to get a rise out of people, it makes you look like an amateur wannabee. You are better than that and I still love you.
P.S. . I am responding to the autographed comments, what does that have to do with buying graded books and why did you bring it up? I only own 3 slabbed books all bought for long term investment and more or less low prices.
P.P.S. What early 50s comic book character predicted slabbing and comics as an investment?
Why candy coat it? I spend plenty on my collection and although some have the means to spend more I still and most have a nice collection to show for. Not everyone collects for the sake of value or to make a profit, some just collect because they love it! I said before that the fact that my collection or comic books for that matter are worth money is only the icing on the cake for me, it is hardly ever a factor when buying a book.
Sure, having a good paying job or funds to drop whatever you like on comix or anything for that matter is great but let's not forget the people who paid cover for this stuff when it came out, the true collectors in my opinion.
You have missed my point and it is unclear to me why. I never said Zap was not an important book, I just feel that it's value is over rated simply because it has been reprinted so many times over. There are so many rare and yes comix that have quality art and such that have never seen the light of day other than it their original print. To me, these are the real gems because you either have it or you don't.
I personally would never buy a damage copy of Zap #1 first print just to say I own a Zap first print, but that is just me.
These are all my opinions and do not reflect anyone else's but my own. I am not posting any of this to piss anyone off and I am certainly not attacking anyone. I consider myself to be a personal friend of Arnold's and we are both adults so, there is no reason to shut a thread down just because everyone does not side the same.
Jason
Ps. If I have missed you point or what you are directing at me, I am sorry.
Oh yeah and I was Visitor Q! I was wondering how long it would take you to figure that out. LOL! I did post over there to get a rise out of you, guilty. ;) Cripes, it took you long enough... hahahaha The mask has been lifted. Shit man, we really need to have a beer together sometime. I need to get my ass back up there. ;)
I have to admit, as influential and important as Zap #1 is and will forever be, it's been reprinted so many times that I'm sick of seeing it. And while I don't own a Plymell, there are so many other rare books with colorful histories that I would rather have (e.g., The Being Bad, Catalog Comix #1 and #2). Hell, one of my most prized possessions, my copy of Snuk Comix, of which there can only be a handful in existence, is something that I can honestly say that I wouldn't trade, even for a Plymell. I'm with Jason in that such books are the real gems of the hobby.
Quote from: Reverend on December 13, 2007, 02:11:36 PM
I have to admit, as influential and important as Zap #1 is and will forever be, it's been reprinted so many times that I'm sick of seeing it. And while I don't own a Plymell, there are so many other rare books with colorful histories that I would rather have (e.g., The Being Bad, Catalog Comix #1 and #2). Hell, one of my most prized possessions, my copy of Snuk Comix, of which there can only be a handful in existence, is something that I can honestly say that I wouldn't trade, even for a Plymell. I'm with Jason in that such books are the real gems of the hobby.
See... You get what I am saying, thank you.
Jason
<-- Arnold... Ya like the new handle? :laughing9: That's my evil laugh BTW.
Jason
ps. Hell my other nick was too long anyway.