What's the closest collection to an UnderGround Comix Pedigree?
If you came across a collection that you thought might be considered a UG-C pedigree collection, with multiple NM copies purchased by the original owner, what would you do? Try to get others involved and make it a combined effort, or would you try to grab as much as you can and "do it yourself"?
I suppose it all comes down to dollars and cents, doesn't it? If money wasn't a concern, I'm sure most folks would do it themselves.
Are you talking about Dan Florian's collection? He supposedly has a ton of books for sale and just put a sampler lot on eBay to rouse interest: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270200855532 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270200855532).
At this point in time, one collector that I know turned down over 2 mil. I know both parties. The Bruce Collection would be worth $$$ and another one in Ca is worth bucks. All three know values, so you ain't going to steal them. So you would have to go in or buy what you could that you really wanted. On the other hand 3 very good collections came out in the last year and they could have been had from $15k - $40k. I got the cheap one. How much can you spend? If it was a regular comic deal for 6 -7 figures, I know people who would give me a commission. You forgot that one. In ugs, I don't know how many people would go six figures (without art) for a collection.
What if money was a concern? Would you do what you could to try to put the funds together, or get others involved (and worry about those that might FUCK you)?
Sounds like you know where a collection is....
I would get others involved, but if it is Dan Florian's collection, as I assume it is, a lot of people know that he's breaking it down and selling it.
There is the one that the owner wants over 2 mil for. That's out of my league. There is a major one out on the west coast that that's not up yet. If it goes in one lot, I am out of it. I forgot about Dan. Then there is Thill. I used to sell him stuff. As far as collections go, I think that the days over reasonably profit making collections may be going the way of golden age. Only a few can play. I am trying to pick up Zaps and other keys and most of all art. I can still buy enough on that level to make money and spend all I can.
Hey Rev.
Can you send me the e-mail address or mailing address to Dan, I don't want to be left out of a lot of people, knowing about a collection going for sale?
Do you have a list of his collection for sale you could post for us?
Thanks,
He's snail-mailing me a copy of his list as that's the only way he has it. I'll let you know once it arrives.
There may be others like (Over40Artist, OldMilwaukee6er, BrotherJ, and other UG collector's on this forum...) that would probably like to request the list too, if they haven't already done so. Can you PM me the mailing address and perhaps others that request it?
I would, but I don't have his mailing address. I contacted him through eBay (link above). He's very slow to respond. I'm not sure if I have his e-mail address, I'd have to check, but wouldn't bet on it.
I see Bruce won his auction, that went for too little IMO (as you can see I bid). Perhaps Bruce has already purchased it?
That auction should've gone for twice as much. I was going to bid, but decided not to at the eleventh hour. The only item I really wanted was that oddball Doug Bryson book. I love Bryson's stuff.
I don't think Dan has really begun to sell the bulk of his books.
50cent. I know this is the incorrect thread, but I can't find the one that you had before about new comix for the wiki. Yesterday you had one with an elephant on the cover and from what I saw you called it "COMIX" with yellow variant cover. I may have missed some text but I believe that book is called "Circus Squardon Book One" #456 in the Kennedy guide.
No, it's called Comix in the Kennedy #494
http://headcomix.info/forum/index.php?topic=416.0
Can you show the scan again, please. Is your comic 5 x 5 1/2" ?
Here: http://headcomix.info/forum/index.php?topic=416.0 (http://headcomix.info/forum/index.php?topic=416.0).
I answered in the thread in the link.
Sorry, my mistake.. Circus Squadron cover is different, the elephant just looked about the same to me last night.
Was it pink? :tongue4:
lol... no, yellow that same as Comix
Quote from: 50Cent #II (1st print) on February 19, 2008, 10:58:34 PM
What if money was a concern? Would you do what you could to try to put the funds together, or get others involved (and worry about those that might FUCK you)?
:headscratch:
well... if someone offered me such a collection... for myself i know that i could not afford to purchase it. i am simply not in that game.
So Reverend, this seller has been collecting from 1972 according to his listing. From it you can see that he's got high grade comix that he's purchased directly from the makers and ordered copies in multitude. He's kept the letters and sales records for each it appears. If his collection is larger than 3,000 comix (that includes keys and he's owned 2 green Lenny's, but sold one), then it would be a contender for the first official Underground Comix Pedigree collection from the CGC. He's got his name listed in the Kennedy guide as giving Jay info. to help put the guide together (p. 6) and even is listed for one item #1299 (p. 141). You can find also according to his listing that he also did Spaced Kosmix for the Mind and the cover to Outside In #4 as well as work in Mixed Nuts #1 mini. If there is any UG-C collection that deserves a Pedigree, this sounds like it might be it. Donahue's stock he bought from Sidebottom is considered by many as an unofficial "UG Pedigree" but Donahue is a dealer, not collector and Mal Whyte's collection (now owned by John Dolmayan of Torpedo Comics, Las Vegas, NV) is only 600 comix, so can't be considered by the CGC as a Pedigree.
What do you guys think?
That sounds like the number one contender for a pedigree if ever there was one. So, what's the deal with him, is he trying to sell the entire collection in one fell swoop, or is he simply content to sell it piece by piece?
He's selling his multiples, not the whole thing and I believe it's piece by piece. I suggested he might want to look into getting his collection pedigreed before selling any more...
It would be a Pedigree, but what name. There ws the Mile High and the White Mountain collections. What would Dan call his?
The "Ohio Underground" Collection or "Ohio Comix" Collection? We'd have to probably ask him what he thought?
I like the "Ohio Underground" collection, myself. A play on the Ohio Underground Railroad to freedom.
I personally think the Malcolm Whyte collection is a pedigree, who gives a shit what CGC thinks?
Here are the (4) criteria commonly accepted for pedigree consideration...
Excerpted from: http://www.comicpedigrees.com/pedigree-criteria.htm
1) ORIGIN A pedigreed collection must have been accumulated by one individual during the time the comics were released on the newsstand. This is a critical factor because a pedigree's appeal comes from their homogenous quality and singular genesis. The books have aged together in the same environment, creating a uniform "feel" that does not exist for comics in a collection with diverse origins.
2) QUALITY A pedigreed collection must primarily consist of high quality comic books. To date no one has established a minimum grade for which a collection must meet to garner a pedigree, but analysis of the 45 Golden Age collections discussed in Volume I of our book shows that most of them average VF 8.0 or higher. Similar analysis of Silver Age pedigrees (to be discussed in Volume II) will likely yield a higher average due to the prevalence of high grade comics from the 1960's.
The size of a collection must also be considered when averaging quality. Tiny pedigrees, like the Allentown (which numbered only 135 books) are almost all high grade, whereas the Crippen collection (containing nearly 13,000 comics) exhibits a vast array of grades, ranging from Poor to NM/M.
3) COMPLETENESS A pedigreed collection must contain a substantial number of key or rare issues, or represent a significant portion of a particular genre, company, period, or classic title/character. Within this third criteria lies a substantial gray area for Golden Age collections. Nearly 20,000 different comic books were published between 1933 and 1955, allowing the term "complete" to be interpreted many ways... Other times the term "complete" can refer to a publisher or specific genre. The Gaines collection is made up entirely of EC comics, and the Crowleys boast full runs of Fawcett. Westerns were the genre of choice when the New Hampshire collection was assembled, as was the horror genre for the Northford pedigree.
For Silver Age collections, completeness is easier to define. The majority of key issues, as well as complete runs of early issues of the important titles must be present... Post-1964 comics are considerably more common in high grade, and collections containing such books turn up frequently. A collection containing those pre-1965 issues in high grade is quite rare, and is thus more deserving of a pedigree status.
Overall, a Golden Age pedigree's contents must represent one of the following:
- Sheer size (Mile High, Crippen)
- Presence of #1 issues and/or major keys (Allentown, Denver, Windy City),
- Most issues of a company, genre, period, or classic title/character (Gaines, Northford, Chicago)
- Presence of rare issues (Lost Valley, Larson)
4) MARKET ACCEPTANCE CGC and the collecting community must continue to recognize the pedigree name of a collection past the point of initial sale. Two signs of an accepted pedigree are the continued willingness of buyers to pay multiples of guide, and the perpetuation of the pedigree name through subsequent sales. Since CGC's entry into the market over seven years ago, they have unofficially become the "final word" on whether a collection receives a pedigree, although no specific requirements have ever been established regarding a minimum average grade or size. A few collections have been marketed as pedigrees without being CGC'd, which in terms of market acceptance have produced mixed results.
Prior to CGC's opening in 2000, market acceptance was the true test of a pedigree's mettle, especially during the pedigree boom of the '90s. Once people realized that a pedigree designation gave a seller the option to price comics at multiples of guide value, the concept was used with increased frequency. Even though several great collections surfaced during this time, many did not warrant a pedigree. The market realized this, and the designations and guide multiples of the undeserving faded over time.
Quote from: 50Cent #II (1st print) on February 21, 2008, 07:17:05 PM
He's kept the letters and sales records for each it appears.
What do you guys think?
Assuming that this collection meets or at least approaches the four criteria above (which it very well could), then I think that the best way to document the provenance would be for the whole schebang to be submitted through CGC and certified as either a "Collection" (which just about anybody can designate if one submits enough books through the system) or a "Pedigree." But that path costs a lot of money and is only really feasible if one is selling the whole collection off through an auction house that is giving them discounted slabbing rates.
if he starts to break the collection up slowly then it is just another source of high grade comix and perhaps the bidders get some of the sales records too.
at any rate i think that it is a timely discussion and one that i am working on myself a little (just trying to document all the "pedigree-esque" comix and then comparing the compiled list against these criteria to see if such a thing is possible for u-comix.
BTW there is also this interesting thread on CGC's boards on the pedigree designation...
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2210776&page=1&fpart=1
Ultimately, it depends upon what Dan's intentions are. How quickly does he want to move his duplicates? Is he willing to invest the money and spend the time necessary to do the above? It requires a considerable amount of effort, not to mention dedication to the process.
I think the first step would be to document the history of the collection (our favorite author said he might be interested and I forwarded Dan's contact info.) and catalog it (I don't think the whole collection has to be submitted to the CGC). Might be an exciting addition to the Supplement or the next Guide?
Clive Barker?
OK, how about our favorite Underground Comix historian author... (not Estren, not Skinn, but...)
Maxon Crumb?
:3: :bootyshake: and where's the Doh! or smiley slapping his head icon?
patrick rosenkranz!
Rosenkranz "Rebel Visions' is a member here also.
Quote from: 50Cent #II (1st print) on February 25, 2008, 02:13:46 PM
Rosenkranz "Rebel Visions' is a member here also.
Great Book BTW!
Jason
Quote from: 50Cent #II (1st print) on February 25, 2008, 01:19:53 AM
OK, how about our favorite Underground Comix historian author... (not Estren, not Skinn, but...)
Zonker?