Thought this might be interesting, can a list be compiled of the big Ug-C collectors (not dealers like Donahue, SideBottoms, Robert L. Beerbohm, Jim Pitts or Terry Stroud, but collectors -Weist is/was both)?
I'll start with the ones listed in some of the books.
Jay Kennedy (deceased)
Bruce Seamans (and I'm told his brother was once a collector also)
"1stComix"
**"Dr_S" (Arnie)
Malcolm Whyte (collection now owned by John Dolmayan)
Dan Florian
*Shelby Kirch (X)
Robert K. Wiener
Jerry Weist
*Bill Desmond
Bhob Stewart
*Bruce Sweeney
*Marc Von Arx
*John Godin
Clay Geerdes (deceased)
Jim Vadeboncoeur
Bob Eagelston
*George Erling
Dick Swan
John Thompson (deceased)
Tom Brinkmann
Richard Bruning
Robert Cavey
Bill Devine
Bill Emerson (JustKidsNostalgia)
Marc Gabler
Peggy Rita
Robert "Scotty" Scotellaro
Bob Stewart
Dave Toplitz (X)
Norman Witty
Robert Abell
Walter Bachner (X)
Chris Duffy
Brad Foster
Bill Fowler
Fred Greenberg
Dave Hollis
Larry Jahn
Fred Knorr (X)
Mike Koukoutsakis
Mike Krasowski
Curt Metz
Tucker Petertil
Steven Raskin
Jake Schaffner
Ron Thompson
Jerry Tomasiewicz
Jack Venooker
Richard Wayne (deceased)
"Thillaj"
(Note that real names from this list is from publications published over 25 years ago and many of these collectors no longer collect, have sold off their collections or have passed away. This is not a top secret list with contact info. of names newly discovered by me, but names clearly available to anyone who purchases the Kennedy Guide, Fogel's Guide (notice I did not include anyone from that Guide that wasn't included in previous publications except Malcolm Whyte who no longer has his collection), Illustrated Checklist to Underground Comix and the R. Crumb Checklist.)
-Suspected (U.K.) collectors:
Mal Burns
Dez Skinn
David Huxley (there is a long list of names in the Acknowledgements of his book "Nasty Tales" that could be added).
* = (mentioned in more than one publication)
collections sold to "Dr_S" = (X)
Did I miss anyone or list someone that shouldn't be included?
For current UG collectors, we should probably add **"Zonker" (assuming from his UGComix.info website), "OldMilwaukee6er", "Over40Artist", "Reverend", "Artystyc", "dbcues", "Brother J", **"Sir Real", "ComicWiz", "Dr. Benway" and "Visitor Q" from this forum and there's a few from eBay ("Mirabelle", etc. ) that come up a lot that I've forgotten their eBay names.
I'll keep my name [50cent #II (1st print)] off the list for now, as I've only been collecting for a little over a year and only have a couple keys.
"TreeLover" who is rumored to have the biggest collection of Undergrounds on the planet said in April 2007 "First generation included people like Shelby Kirch, Jerry Weist, Walter Bachener, Sandy Cutler, Jay Kennedy of course, maybe Rick Wayne, Glenn Bray, and Scheiman, forgive me for forgetting some others. Lynch, Kitchen, and Turner have massive collections. Someone ought to compile a short history of underground collectors and the origins and fate of their collections, before we fade into dust with our yellowing collections...."
Dr_S. replied " You forgot Dave Topliz and Bill Emerson in you first generation. I am still collecting. Rick's collection went to his brother. I got Dave's, Shelby's, and Bachner's. Kennedy's collection is up for grabs. The other's I don't know what happened to them."
(https://headcomix.info/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg103.exs.cx%2Fimg103%2F8760%2Ffriends3.gif&hash=08419bd6e5b2b535637a54dc8c0e8a80d2fb81cd)
:icon_redface:
Should I assume that the first list is basically people who have/had significant collections that were collecting back in the day when the undergrounds were being published? I know you mentioned their names were mentioned in various books.
Interesting list. It's also interesting to me that I recognize a good chunk of the names in the first list and all the names on the second. I must be payin' attention!
You sure these people want their name discussed on some forum about comix?
Jason
I don't understand the list.. It appears to be 25 years old. I know of e=at least three you left off, but I go with Jason and won't list them. As for your list, several are dead:
I know for sure of Jay Kennedy, Clay Geerdes, John Thompson,, and Richard Wayne
Several do not collect any more: Robert K. Wiener, Jerry Weist, Bill Devine, Norman Witty,
Others sold or are selling their collection: Bruce's brother sold his to Bruce, Emerson was the JUSTKIDSNOSTALGIA auction, Thillaj, Dan Florian.
and I think Fred Greenberg is out of it. Haven't seen him in years.
Of course there are the ones who sold out to me: Toplitz, Kirch, Bachner, and Knorr,
I wonder whatever happened to Chris Duffy. I used to buy from him at the Chicago cons 2 decades ago.
By the way, what happened to the second list?
Quote from: dr_s on February 27, 2008, 10:06:55 AM
By the way, what happened to the second list?
The second list is there, it's basically most of us from the boards who have decent collections. 50 cent left himself off the list, but he might as well include himself. He probably has just as many keys as many of us. Multiples of Zap #2 (1st) are key enough for me!
I know some of them value their anonymity and probably wouldn't want to be mentioned here.
Quote from: Reverend on February 27, 2008, 11:31:28 AM
I know some of them value their anonymity and probably wouldn't want to be mentioned here.
reminds me of a great quote from the other board:
"One thing I have found out about UG collectors, is that they tend to be a generally secretive bunch. The trading one normally finds among AG comic collectors is virtually absent in the UG world. We sit on our hard-fought horde, mumbling and giggling to ourselves about the treasure we have amassed, guarding it jealously. The regular unwashed millions never get to see our collections. Even when confronted by another collector, he must display his credibility in UG knowledge before even getting a glimpse of those precious, precious long-boxes."
Probably a good idea not to have the list, a lot of those names might be looking here and not appreciate the shout-out.
Good quote. If you remember, I had some fun with trying to figure out who mthwhbr was and created a thread about it in the other forum, which was all in good fun. In hindsight, I shouldn't have done it. With that said, I don't agree with this thread. There's no reason to put these people in the spotlight, even if a few of them are mentioned in various publications.
If they didn't want their name known, then they wouldn't have agreed to have their names published in either the Kennedy Guide, the Fogel's Guide, the Illustrated Guide to Underground Comix or the R. Crumb checklist is the way I see it. All their names are in public print, why would it be wrong to list them here on our "uncensored" forum? Are they going to somehow buy all the copies of the book they are listed in to remove their name from history? All those that aren't listed in the books have their User or eBay name used.
Quote from: dr_s on February 27, 2008, 10:06:55 AM
I don't understand the list.. It appears to be 25 years old. I know of e=at least three you left off, but I go with Jason and won't list them. As for your list, several are dead:
I know for sure of Jay Kennedy, Clay Geerdes, John Thompson,, and Richard Wayne
Several do not collect any more: Robert K. Wiener, Jerry Weist, Bill Devine, Norman Witty,
Others sold or are selling their collection: Bruce's brother sold his to Bruce, Emerson was the JUSTKIDSNOSTALGIA auction, Thillaj, Dan Florian.
and I think Fred Greenberg is out of it. Haven't seen him in years.
Of course there are the ones who sold out to me: Toplitz, Kirch, Bachner, and Knorr,
I wonder whatever happened to Chris Duffy. I used to buy from him at the Chicago cons 2 decades ago.
By the way, what happened to the second list?
Thanks for the great info. As for Florian, he's not selling his whole collection, just dupes (though he did sell some keys though Sotheby's a few years ago).
Dr_S, did this list bring up some lost memories?
What's the purpose of this thread?
Quote from: Brother J on February 27, 2008, 12:05:08 PM
Quote from: Reverend on February 27, 2008, 11:31:28 AM
I know some of them value their anonymity and probably wouldn't want to be mentioned here.
reminds me of a great quote from the other board:
"One thing I have found out about UG collectors, is that they tend to be a generally secretive bunch. The trading one normally finds among AG comic collectors is virtually absent in the UG world. We sit on our hard-fought horde, mumbling and giggling to ourselves about the treasure we have amassed, guarding it jealously. The regular unwashed millions never get to see our collections. Even when confronted by another collector, he must display his credibility in UG knowledge before even getting a glimpse of those precious, precious long-boxes."
Great quote.
Sorry Brother J, I must have clicked the Modify button instead of the Quote button, that's why is shows it was edited by me, that's like the 2nd or third time I've done it, you think I would learn by now.
Quote from: Reverend on February 27, 2008, 01:14:38 PM
What's the purpose of this thread?
To discuss how many of the BIG Ug-C collectors are out there...
If you have an ad in Fogel, you want mention. If your in Kennedy or the Illustrated, that's old old news. However I can think of several eBayers who have large collections who do not let their real name appear. There are others who I am friendly with, who are big time lawyers, politicians, diamond merchants or whatever who don't need to have their name going out on the internet. After all, if a con man gets to know about you through this board and rips you off, you wouldn't be happy. So I won't tell you about George Bushes collection.
So, the purpose is to discuss and speculate about other people's private collections. Alright. Why?
Quote from: Reverend on February 27, 2008, 01:21:01 PM
So, the purpose is to discuss and speculate about other people's private collections. Alright. Why?
How would their collections be private if their names are in print (sometimes in multiple times) in Underground Comix related publications? As I've stated, those that don't have their names published have their "screen name" used for ananimoty.
Maybe to provoke some of them to post here?
So Dr_S, you purchased the collection of the guy who created the original Underground Comix checklist, Kirch, that must have had some interesting finds in it. Do you keep a record of which books you pick up from different collections? Maybe you should for lineage.
I don't really see the point in all this myself. Private Collections means private to me. I would not want people posting my first and last name all over the net or spamming my eBay name. If these people want to discuss their collection they would come here and post about it on their own.
Not looking to make waves, just my opinion on the matter and you have yours.
I'll leave it at that.
Jason
The fact that they have a collection isn't private, but the contents of that collection are, unless, of course, they've been cataloged and that catalog, too, has been published somewhere. Furthermore, who's to say that the person who included mention of a collector's name in their publication had that collector's consent? It's easy to assume such things. Circumstances also change. Perhaps, in some situations, people regret being known for certain things.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with censorship.
I don't know what I got from Shelby or others. Nobody, except the last collection, kept lists. There might have been want lists but nobody knew what was out there so the want lists were incomplete. I know I got a Snatch 1 and Das Kampf from Bachner, another big collector who reprinted the Das Kamph. I stupidly sold them. Other than that, the only thing I truly remember was buying a box in 1977 of mint undergrounds from a guy named Blackney for $1k. It contained among other stuff 10-20 Zap 1s (All long gone but mine). I got the cover to Ozone 1 for $125 at the same show. Of course you forgot the
big time dealer, who still sells at San Diego and other cons --- my man Terry Stroud.,
I mentioned that I wasn't going to include dealers, only true collectors or dealers that were also collectors.
Funny thing is yesterday someone mentioned that Jim had a Charlatan at the WonderCon last weekend and that I might want to contact him. I told him that I bought my Charlatan probably from the guy Jim did (Terry) at the SDCC '07...
well I added his name to the non-list.
I only mentioned Terry because for years, he was so much of the underground scene. Everyone used his selling list for ugs. You are talking easily since 1970.
I make pool cues. There is a list of pool cue collectors that live in the USA. That list is a highly guarded thing. It is not posted on any internet forums for all to see. It was compiled by a small group of cuemakers as a way of contacting potential buyers to their products. Not as a list for anyone to look and use anyway they saw fit - like robbing them or scamming them or hounding them to death. Those that make publicly known what they have collected have decided that what they have collected is more important for others to see. Those that don't list their collection publicly do so for many reasons, maybe just so the IRS doesnt have a clue to their net worth. For myself, even now, as I am trying to sell the majority of my collection, when someone wants a list of everything that I have, I am reluctant to provide that list. I have no clue who the person asking for the list is. At the San Deigo Comic Book show last year I was looking to sell the 400 pre 76' books that I had brought with me. I was offered 15% of sticker price. My Morse's Funnies alone was worth almost what I was offered. I don't want everyone in the world to know what I have and what it's worth and think the idea of a collector list most unnecessary.
Added this disclaimer:
"(Note that this list is from publications published over 25 years ago and many of these collectors no longer collect, have sold off their collections or have passed away. This is not a top secret list with contact info. but names clearly available to anyone who purchases the Kennedy Guide, Fogel's Guide (notice I did not include anyone from the Guide that wasn't included in previous publications except Malcolm Whyte who no longer has his collection), Illustrated Checklist to Underground Comix and the R. Crumb Checklist.)"
Quote from: Reverend on February 27, 2008, 02:05:38 PM
...Furthermore, who's to say that the person who included mention of a collector's name in their publication had that collector's consent? ....
I agree.
A mention in JK's guide is only a "Thank You" and nothing more.
Many of the contributers to our wiki and to UGcomix.info, are smaller collectors with lots of enthusiasim for the project. While the old-timers on your list are notorisly absent.
Getting mentioned in publications is more a mesure of enthusiasim than collection size.
** And why aint I on the list ??? **
(I'm torn between my ego and my secrative nature.)
While I don't know how Dan is doing things , Guy should be in it, but Overstreet and Kennedy used people who had large collections or who were major dealers. Also, they used people they knew. I was once referenced in a comic guide because I had a complete Classic Comic collection (1st print) and a near complete Dell 4 color collection By using my listing, Overstreet couldn't sue the author for plagiarism in these areas. Yes, I jokingly told Bob about this years ago.
Quote from: 50Cent #II (1st print) on February 27, 2008, 02:41:07 AM
Thought this might be interesting, can a list be compiled of the big Ug-C collectors (not dealers like Donahue, SideBottoms, Robert L. Beerbohm, Jim Pitts or Terry Stroud, but collectors -Weist is/was both)?
I'll start with the ones listed in some of the books.
Jay Kennedy (deceased)
Bruce Seamans (and I'm told his brother was once a collector also)
"1stComix"
**"Dr_S" (Arnie)
Malcolm Whyte (collection now owned by John Dolmayan)
Dan Florian
*Shelby Kirch (X)
Robert K. Wiener
Jerry Weist
*Bill Desmond
Bhob Stewart
*Bruce Sweeney
*Marc Von Arx
*John Godin
Clay Geerdes (deceased)
Jim Vadeboncoeur
Bob Eagelston
*George Erling
Dick Swan
John Thompson (deceased)
Tom Brinkmann
Richard Bruning
Robert Cavey
Bill Devine
Bill Emerson (JustKidsNostalgia)
Marc Gabler
Peggy Rita
Robert "Scotty" Scotellaro
Bob Stewart
Dave Toplitz (X)
Norman Witty
Robert Abell
Walter Bachner (X)
Chris Duffy
Brad Foster
Bill Fowler
Fred Greenberg
Dave Hollis
Larry Jahn
Fred Knorr (X)
Mike Koukoutsakis
Mike Krasowski
Curt Metz
Tucker Petertil
Steven Raskin
Jake Schaffner
Ron Thompson
Jerry Tomasiewicz
Jack Venooker
Richard Wayne (deceased)
"Thillaj"
(Note that real names from this list is from publications published over 25 years ago and many of these collectors no longer collect, have sold off their collections or have passed away. This is not a top secret list with contact info. of names newly discovered by me, but names clearly available to anyone who purchases the Kennedy Guide, Fogel's Guide (notice I did not include anyone from that Guide that wasn't included in previous publications except Malcolm Whyte who no longer has his collection), Illustrated Checklist to Underground Comix and the R. Crumb Checklist.)
-Suspected (U.K.) collectors:
Mal Burns
Dez Skinn
David Huxley (there is a long list of names in the Acknowledgements of his book "Nasty Tales" that could be added).
* = (mentioned in more than one publication)
collections sold to "Dr_S" = (X)
Did I miss anyone or list someone that shouldn't be included?
For current UG collectors, we should probably add **"Zonker" (assuming from his UGComix.info website), "OldMilwaukee6er", "Over40Artist", "Reverend", "Artystyc", "dbcues", "Brother J", **"Sir Real", "ComicWiz", "Dr. Benway" and "Visitor Q" from this forum and there's a few from eBay ("Mirabelle", etc. ) that come up a lot that I've forgotten their eBay names.
I'll keep my name [50cent #II (1st print)] off the list for now, as I've only been collecting for a little over a year and only have a couple keys.
"TreeLover" who is rumored to have the biggest collection of Undergrounds on the planet said in April 2007 "First generation included people like Shelby Kirch, Jerry Weist, Walter Bachener, Sandy Cutler, Jay Kennedy of course, maybe Rick Wayne, Glenn Bray, and Scheiman, forgive me for forgetting some others. Lynch, Kitchen, and Turner have massive collections. Someone ought to compile a short history of underground collectors and the origins and fate of their collections, before we fade into dust with our yellowing collections...."
Dr_S. replied " You forgot Dave Topliz and Bill Emerson in you first generation. I am still collecting. Rick's collection went to his brother. I got Dave's, Shelby's, and Bachner's. Kennedy's collection is up for grabs. The other's I don't know what happened to them."
Quote from: dr_s on February 27, 2008, 10:06:55 AM
I don't understand the list.. It appears to be 25 years old. I know of e=at least three you left off, but I go with Jason and won't list them. As for your list, several are dead:
I know for sure of Jay Kennedy, Clay Geerdes, John Thompson,, and Richard Wayne
Several do not collect any more: Robert K. Wiener, Jerry Weist, Bill Devine, Norman Witty,
Others sold or are selling their collection: Bruce's brother sold his to Bruce, Emerson was the JUSTKIDSNOSTALGIA auction, Thillaj, Dan Florian.
and I think Fred Greenberg is out of it. Haven't seen him in years.
Of course there are the ones who sold out to me: Toplitz, Kirch, Bachner, and Knorr,
I wonder whatever happened to Chris Duffy. I used to buy from him at the Chicago cons 2 decades ago.
By the way, what happened to the second list?
I got most of Clay Geerdes' stuff from David Miller about 8 years ago.
So what dictates a serious ug collector?
Is it the # of UG's they have? What are some of the keys one would need to have in their collection?
Thanks
I got the list from various guides, checklists, etc. that have these collectors credited.
I would say a minimum percent (75) of Kennedy, or a very near complete collection of a major artist like Crumb or many keys Zap 1 - Ozone 1 - Snatch 1 - etc) or maybe a lot of art. I would also say that their comic art collection/comic collection would be worth $100k or more) the people on the list that I knew all had Zap 1s, Lennys, Godnose, and things like that. They all have 20 - 30 or more cartons of pre-1982 stuff. My Philly friend has over 700 Crumb pages to supplement his ug collection of maybe 1000-2000 ugs. He has many keys like Catalog Comix, multiple Zap 1s, Zippyscope , and etc. Face it, if one needed almost anything in Donahue's catalogs they probably did not have a big collection.
Thanks dr_s ,
That was very humbling. :icon_redface:
Hey thillaj,
I would love to hear what all you picked up from David Miller on Clay's stuff.
Clay left to me about 4,000 or so UGs along with nearly all of his golden/silver age books. I have around 200 mini-comix too along with the newsletters. Tons of interesting stuff. He was like me, saved everything. I have some art from the mini books but I think the majority of it David received.
You can email me if you prefer.
-bill
I got a near complete run of Comix World from Miller a few years ago outside the Berkeley Bart Station. There were enough dupes in the stack that I was able to sell them on ebay and make back what I laid out for the pile. At the time the price seemed a little steep, but it all worked out in the end.
The Comix World newsletters are nice to read. I don't have any idea what a complete run goes for. I think I saw someone selling a big chunk of the run in rough shape for over $100 or something like that. David Miller is a great resource for a lot of Clay's stuff. I think it would surprise most people if they knew how many copies of certain books that the big collectors set aside.