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Hey Arnie, how rare are these?  Haven't seen Ug ashcans posted before...

Jesus #2 (1st print)

Mother Oats #1 (4th print)
(By the way, I've found a new printing that goes between the 4th and 5th print of the Mother Oats #1's on UGComix.info, making it actually at least 6 printings for MO #1.)

Ug ashcans are tough to get. I have 2 or 3 Crumb comics (big ass?) a Fantagor 2 , the Sunpot (if it is an ashcan - these wer sold at a con) and one of the Den comics. Except for the Sunpot I don;t believe there could be more than 10 or 20 of a number. (Prove me wrong since I am just guessing)

Um, ashcan?
(https://headcomix.info/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wizdforums.co.uk%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fshrug.gif&hash=8fc95dcb5a9ccca08e1e552d56e32dd202c5e81c)

Ashcans are b&w copies of a comic book usually by the printer/pub, basically a bound photocopy.  I believe they send them out to distributors so they can decide how many copies they want to order.  But originally it was for legal reasons and they were thrown out most of the times.

Here's a more detailed explanation on how they came about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcan_edition

You got a COA from the publisher?
Anybody can xerox off a bootleg

And why would anyone ashcan a 4th printing?.

Quote from: Comix Junky on May 25, 2008, 02:02:25 AM

You got a COA from the publisher?
Anybody can xerox off a bootleg

And why would anyone ashcan a 4th printing?.

No COA, guess anybody with the right equipment could.  Can't use just any copier due to the size of the sheets of paper (and probably less likely when these issues came out) and then a binding machine or special stapler.
As for why a ashcan for a 4th print?  Why not?  Didn't they want to sell later printings too?

I have to laugh about the "binding machine" thing. You can buy a saddle stitcher for around $40-50 through the mail. It's also very easy to use. Reproducing these sorts of things wouldn't be that difficult, especially these days.

The above comics do, indeed, look Xeroxed, given how the toner is wearing along the spine. And do they have three staples in the binding? That's more than a little odd.

Ashcans aren't for everyone I guess...

By the way, anyone see how much the Golden Age ashcans for Superman went for?

First, I will scan everything as soon as I straighten out my comic area and plans for my kid's surprise wedding. The ones I have, have pedigrees of a sort. the Big A***es are blue, and look like test copies. I got them from the Frenchman Diediet in the 70s. He was the guy how paid Kim Dietch $500 for the cover to the Ballentine Fritz the Cat. I do not know where I got the Fantagor, but it is in full color. I do not know what it is, probalby a proof. I won the Den from ebay. Turns out the dealer was someone I know for 15 years and he is a rare regular comic dealer. It was an ashcan from the Library of Congress for copy write purposes. The Sunpot is xeroxed inside and signed and sold by Bode at some convention, I have one comic ashcan of note, the Warren House of Frankenstein or some thing like that. A regular  mag that Warren put out for copywrite purposes. I was out bid  at $600 for another Warren ashcan, Yesterday Today and Tomorrow a one printing ashcan that had a reprint Corben story. Of course in regular comics there was Motion Picture Funnies 1 - the 1st Submariner and the legendary Thrill Book 1 or Whiz 1 (the first Captain Marvel). The later ones go for big bucks but a fraction of the 1st regular comic editions of these characters.

My copies have provenance also.  His name is listed in JK page 6.

You bought them from me?

Man, I hate that term, "ashcan"...

Quote from: dr_s on May 25, 2008, 11:27:53 AM
I have one comic ashcan of note, the Warren House of Frankenstein or some thing like that. A regular  mag that Warren put out for copywrite purposes. I was out bid  at $600 for another Warren ashcan, Yesterday Today and Tomorrow a one printing ashcan that had a reprint Corben story.

Wasn't Eerie #1 technically an ashcan, for copyright purposes, and only sold at a newsstand near the Warren offices? 

There were several famous ashcans. One of the Chicago dealers (I can picture the face but not the name) dealt in Superman 1 and other types of ashcans. He was getting $50lk but this was over a decade ago. Of course there was the Eerie 1. I remember a customer buying a copy from me and then counterfeiting it and selling it all over New York. Another great story is Boy Explorer 2. About 20 years ago or more, a famous dealer got into the Harvey warehouse. He wound up with 1000 mini mint copies of this book. It was great trading with him. Every time a trade of $2k or more was being  made and was close, he would throw in a BE 2 to make you happy. Since he liked me, he would give me 2. I used to get $1k apiece for them in San Diego and in Chicago at the cons. I am sure that there are other famous ashcans, but that's all I remember for now.

< ...As for why a ashcan for a 4th print?  Why not?  Didn't they want to sell later printings too?...>

Makes no dam sense.
--------
An ashcan for copyrite or trademark purposes would be the first ever/anywhere publication.

You can't copyrite something till it's been published. (your manuscript is not copyrighted)
For copyrite purposes,  "publication" means it's been distributed. (errors printed and sent to the landfill are not copyrited)   I think the minimum is 20 copies. (check, i could be wrong)
They could be passed out to friends, mailed, or at the newstand in front of the office; free or sold.
Usually your normal distribution system is all you need to claim a copyright.

But if your distribution gets interupted before it gets to the printer, (can you say "DC implosion"?)  you might want to produce a few "ashcans" on your xerox, to protect your copyrite.
--------
A publisher might have a need for a few copies before they're published. (to stimulate sales?)
But once he's got some in the wherehouse, He'll use the real ones.

10k copies cost what?  .25cents each?
Xeroxing and hand stapleing one copy is a lot more cost & trouble.
And it doesn't matter who did it or how few there are, it's an unauthorized bootleg.
------
The whole point of an ashcan for copyrite is that it is THE authorized publication.
This and the rareity makes it valuable.

Your Jesus and Mothers Oats are  NOT  LIGIT.
They are obviously photo-copies of exitsing, published copies (4th printing no less)
There is no need for anybody to ashcan anything after the first printing.
I say again:
It doesn't matter who did it or how few there are, They are unauthorized bootlegs
.
If i'm wrong, if they're authorized, you need documintation.

Ashcans were originally used for copyrighting back in the Golden age, not more recently.  They still use them now in fact...

Another "official" ashcan (per the indica) to LCD #2.

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=34&s=259&ai=62279&ssd=10%2F18%2F2007&sp=superman%20ashcan&sd=10/12/07&arch=y

That's who had the Superman 1 ashcan years ago... Gary Colabuono   Nice guy.

Quote from: 50Cent #II (1st print) on May 25, 2008, 01:07:45 AM
Ashcans are b&w copies of a comic book usually by the printer/pub, basically a bound photocopy.  I believe they send them out to distributors so they can decide how many copies they want to order.  But originally it was for legal reasons and they were thrown out most of the times.

Here's a more detailed explanation on how they came about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcan_edition

It would seem the Wiki entry here would support ComixJunky's point. There really is not much point to ashcanning a 4th print, since the comic book is already copyrighted, established in the market and has a sales record. Authentic ashcans would appear to be relatively rare and implemented only on occasion.

They might have been even less popular in the 1969-1973 underground era, given the publishers' existing relationships with the head shop distribution system and the fact that many UG creators didn't really give a crap about copyright at the time (some even encouraged pirating and free distribution).

Personally, I just don't have much interest in the genre. I'll be much more likely to pursue acquisitions of original art than UG ashcans.

Not that I'd kick one out of bed if it fell into my lap!

As I stated before, they were used for copyrighting way back in the Golden age of comics (long before Ug's), they were used for sales later on.  Sometimes sent out to distributors or large order stores for them to decide if they wanted to carry that title and to decide how many to order.  They didn't want to send out the actual item (ie, guess they didn't want to have the store sell it for a profit when they sent it for free or that it was sent before the release of that comic, so they didn't want it seen in full color months before it was actually released).  They were meant to be thrown out afterwards, another reason why they are rare and why many don't know about them or seen them.  They still do it today...

There is a modern day reason for ashcans. 10 of 20 years ago, the indie publishers realized that could make money selling ashcans. Your can go to any San Diego con and get tons of them. I think my Sunpot is of this type although a heck of a lot earlier.

Well, if you're happy with your find.
If you enjoy your ashcan collection...

I appologize.

I am sorry if any thing i said (or will say) dampens your enjoyment.

Please don't read any further.


OK I confess.
I did them. I've been bootleging comix for years. Xeroxing^TM them off, and selling them to nostalgic suits and young welthy drug dealers, who don't know any better, and expect them to be cheaply produced like the TJ's. I didn't expect them to hit the comix market.
I'm comming clean now cus i don't want my friends here getting ripped off.
I xeroxed^TM about 2 dozzen titles. The Jesus and MO you posted, are some of my work.
Any copier can handle 8 1/2 X 14 paper, which is common. (aka "legal size")
But i had  8 1/2 X 15 cut at work,  which streches the limits of the copier.
I saddle stiched them at work. (30 sec when no one was watching)
If i had intended them as ashcans, i wouldh't have bothered with folding or saddle stiching.
Single sided, with a single staple in the corner would do for an ashcan.

Ok seriously, without documentation, how do you know?
I will go so far as to say:  There are NO underground ashcans!
Even if the sales guy at the publisher's office, xeroxed^TM a few to save himself a trip to the warehouse. They're still bootlegs. I might have made them. Maybe yesterday. Maybe i will tomorrow, just to cash in on this.

> "...to decide how many to order.  They didn't want to send out the actual item
> (ie, guess they didn't want to have the store sell it for a profit when they sent it for free...)..."

Profit? If you're trying convince someone they are going to make money by carying your product, you can't be afraid they're going to make a whole whopping .50 cents on the free sample.

> "...so they didn't want it seen in full color months before it was actually released)"

Sorry, I can't think of a single reason for that scenario.

> "...used for copyrighting way back in the Golden age of comics (long before Ug's),..."
> "...10 of 20 years ago, the indie publishers realized that could make money selling ashcans."

That's not the underground.


In conclusion:
If you are happy with your purchase, I appoligize, enjoy your (ahem) "ashcans".
If you intend to sell,  Get It Documented.
But please do not pollute the wiki with bootlegs.
There are NO underground ashcans.


OTOH:   
They're Underground. ...  They're ALL  ASHCANS !!

OK, but the sheets actually measure 10 1/8" x 14", odd size for a regular copier and a hell of a lot of work for special sized paper and a copier to handle it just for bootlegging a .50 cent comic book?


Here's my last ashcan I'll post here.

I don't quibble with what you are showing there, 50c. Those look like some sort of ashcan version of the comic books. But I also don't doubt for a second Comix Junky's confession about photocopying books. Bottom line, you have to really know what you're dealing with and really have confidence in your sources to be sure of what you have. Arnie probably knows the crap from the real stuff, but even he might be fooled.

Which is why I avoid collecting anything like UG ashcans to begin with. Their providence, even when its genuine, is just too difficult to prove.

Didn't we all just collect comic books in the beginning?

I only actively seek out only Illustrated checklist items or as of now Kennedy items. Even the Kennedy items are ones I do not go overboard with. The only exceptions are for Corben (what the hell, there are only 1000 or so items and most or them are ugs anyway) and cheap ugs that strike my fancy. All of the ashcans I bought came with collections except the Den. And that was $35 on eBay. I guess the only other one, more of a variant, was the gold Turtlerama ed (10 print run) with Corben. It was only $70. So, while I appreciate ashcans or promo issues or what ever they are, they are just curios to me. I really don't go out of my way for them.  I guess I can say the same for the misprint covers.

Always thought ashcan comic were cool.

Neat!

Jason

Quote from: Visitor Q on May 27, 2008, 08:37:09 AM
Always thought ashcan comic were cool.

Neat!

Jason

Oh, I agree with you Jason. I think they're cool, too. Like I said, I wouldn't kick one out of bed if it landed in my lap. But like Arnie, I wouldn't necessarily seek them out. But if they were part of a larger collection, I'd be delighted to get them and I'm sure they would become prized possessions.

Just as long as they didn't come from Comix Junky!

OK, so I came across one more that I had forgotten about in my mag. size collection from the 80's.  It's a ashcan for Equine #3 (signed and numbered #27/250).
So I lied and here's one more...

There was also the Profit ashcan sold by Dennis Kitchen.
(https://headcomix.info/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdeniskitchen.com%2FMerchant2%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2FC_PROFIT.B.JPG&hash=055103980935848316cfb4e9af91f1fca5c6a674)