Is this issue a headache, YES.
So far I've found 4 different groups of staple placements for the 1st printing, so that doesn't help much. I've also found paper variances between thin glossy to a notably thick glossy (probably within the same print run also, so that doesn't help much either). Also differences in the printing quality, notice the blacks not as detailed, some nice and some just bleed to lose lots of detail on the inside front cover.
So I'm not sure what to make of it, I think there may have been at least 2 printings of the "1st print" but perhaps up to 4 or more??? Who knows on this one if it will ever be figured out...
To make this issue even more of a headache, I've found 4 variances of the 3rd printing of this issue. This is what I've noticed, but I'm not sure if these are variances are from the same print run or not, but they do all have the same staple placement, yet some things stick out as being odd if they are from the same print run so those with professional printing experience can chime in...
Third print "A"
Yellow defect line under boot on right edge of front cover, no small vertical red line (red register mark) under "Eggs" Ackley, blue star around Sally Blubberbutt has not white defect. On back cover there is a defect in the blue part of the sky giving it a look like clouds and there is not red register mark at the bottom.
Third print "B"
Yellow defect line is gone from under boot on right edge, but on some copies not cropped close to boot you can now see two smaller ones next to shoe, blue star around Sally Blubberbutt now has white defects, red register mark is now under "Eggs" Ackley. On back sky has no white defect but now a red register mark is at bottom of page.
Third print "C" (or variant of "B"?)
Similar to "B" but the two yellow defects next to boot is fully visible and the colors differ from "B" (ie, the green in front lower right star, Snoid's hair, boots, etc.)/
Third print "D"
Notice the red in the "Bid Ass" title looks like it was done with a paint brush (I have 2 copies of this) and is not seen on the others. On back cover red register mark is at bottom of page.
"B"
"C" (notice the 2 yellow squiggle lines next to the boot on the right are fully visible in this group.)
(Inside front cover appears similar on all, but where the book is cut varies between each so sometimes the indica is part way cut off or high on the page. They all seem to match up though, so if it is all the same print run, then it appears that they are from the same portion of that print run to make the variances match up.)
"D"
Keep in mind that sometimes covers were printed 2-up (2 to a sheet).
Maybe you saw the uncut sheet of zap 13 (Rick Griffin tribute) on ebay last year?
That might account for coppies with or without register marks.
You also need to be aware that some stichers can do a "stagger stich".
Every other book is moved about an inch, so that the stiches don't line up, but are staggered.
This is done so that a stack of books will lie flatter, fit in a box better.
On the bright side: the distance between stiches should remain constant.
Also keep in mind the only colors used are Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black.
Browns are a mixture of all 4. So just a small change in the intensity of any one
(a little too much or too little ink flow) can cause noticeable changes in the shade of brown.
This is why i don't trust JK's discriptions of Big Ass 1. With the brown and/or green pants and/or shoes.
Most of what you've pointed out looks like sloppy presswork to me.
I would like to see a close-up of the yellow mark.
I'm not sure about the blue, could be garbage in the ink or on the rollers.
I am tempted to say the red on "D" really was paint brushed on.
This is typical of relly heavy ink. It can't stay within the lines.
It's temporary sloppy presswork.
In my not-so-humble opinion, only "A" and "B" count.
Either with or without register marks.
But if the covers were printed 2-up, the register marks get explained away too.
Thanks for the info. Good to know about the difference in staple location and that the distance between the two should stay the same. That's what I suspected and usually put all that have the same distance into the same group (even if they have different locations) when i initially examine a printings. As with this one, all staple placement was the same. Each group here had at least 2 copies the same (so I have 2 copies that have the same red paint brushed title, and that one is confusing. I suspect the also that the white defect may be something on the rollers, would explain it but it didn't happen just once as I've got a few copies that appear the same with it so I counted it as one group.
You can see the yellow line below on the far right (I've got about a half dozen copies with the exact same mark).
(https://headcomix.info/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=711.0;attach=747;image)
Also, is that how it's termed 2-up when they print two covers on one sheet? I tried to read up on 1-up and 4-up presses and it seems that when the term 1-up and 4-up is used, it refers to the number of passes through the press for the colors. What I read online it seems that the old 1-up presses processed each sheet through adding one color at a time (so the sheet has to go through 4 times for all 4 colors). I think this might be why you see many covers with on color off register so often, but what about when they aren't off register, is there some other way to notice if one was printed on a 1-up vs. a 4-up? A 4-up does all 4 colors to the sheet on one pass through the press. So it seems it would be confusing it they called it 2-up for describing printing 2 covers at a time on one sheet???
I have not heard the term "4-up presses" before.
But i've been working in a bindry for the last 15 years.I guess the technoligy is leaving me behind.
Before that my experience is in letterpress and offset.
I have no experience with Digital printing.
The usage of 4-up (et al) that i am framiliar with is: howmany copies per sheet. (not the press)
You can print as many per sheet as you want, but the bigger the sheet, the bigger the press you need. presses would be reffered to by their max sheet size, and/or number of colors. i.e. 9x15, 12 x 18, and up. Single color, 2 color, 4 color, etc.
Examples via google:
http://www.common.org/pdfs/conferences/speakers/prepare/4up.pdf
http://www.stamps.com/support/features/pcpostcards/templates/
http://www.alastore.ala.org/SiteSolution.taf?_sn=catalog&_pn=product_detail&_op=1797
http://kb.iu.edu/data/aetr.html
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/printer/v1r1/topic/com.ibm.printers.afpproducts/com.ibm.printers.guidetooutput/c5pu3mst35.htm
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005rFD
But then i found this page from Ryobi, a press maker.
http://www.ryobi.xpedx.com/750.html
" ...the 750 can produce 576,000 8 1/2" x 11" sheets in one eight-hour shift. (6-up? -CJ) Your neighbor's four-up press will only produce 384,000 in that same eight-hour shift.
While you are producing twelve pages in two passes, (2 sides? -CJ) he is only producing eight. Which sheet size do you feel offers the real ADVANTAGE?"
This implys to me that in digital printing, each color is counted as a page.
A 4-up press could produce: 1 four-color page, or 4 single-color pages. In the same pass?
How this could be done is a mystry to me.
Anyhow, since Digital printing didn't exist when Comix were made,
I'll stick with my pre-historic terminology.
This could make more sense, since I just searched 1-up and 4-up on google and these terms should be confined to that particular era. Still would like to know if there is a way to differentiate between a 1-up and a different model by the cover? I think if the colors are way off register and in different places (like copies of San Francisco Comic Book #1) it may be a sign, but not sure?
They were printed on a 17-inch Davidson dualith 233 on cover stock we got from a paper reducer for 15 cents/pound in assorted lots. The cloud defect is probably a blanket smash, which was corrected with blanket restorer. They were stapled on a foot-operated saddle sticher from the 1920s as needed. The operator simply slid the book over and nailed another staple.
All first edition Rip Off books were done this way.
Why don't you obsess about something important, like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
J. David Moriaty
founder, Rip Off Press
Thanks, but if I obsessed about angels on pins then who would be here to read your post? Appreciate the time you took to post though and the info. you provided. Now how about the question we (or is it me) really want answered? How do you tell the difference between a 1st and later print Freak Brothers #1 (that Bruce stated was done on the DD press) and what was the first print of Big Ass #1 (red box or white)?
Hmmm...? So does an angel feel a prick if she dances on a pin? :icon_madu:
By the way, welcome. Nice to see you posting here. Fill us up with unneeded knowledge, please... :ciao: and come back often.
P.S. Would like to hear about your adventures across Europe in the Winter with Jack Jackson on the motorcycle in '64.
You can tell the Freak Bros #1 by the tire. In the first printing there was a screen overlay on the multiple plate burns that was inadvertently omitted in the second printing. That wasn't corrected until much later. We first only printed 5000, because Hydrogen Bomb had bombed so badly.
Big Ass #1? Probably white, because the red tape used in stripping the negs would have obscured the box on the color plates, and wouldn't have been noticed until later. I'll have to look at my uncut press sheets. I threw a proof of every run into a box that somehow made it back to Austin.
Europe was in 1965. Then Jack went to SF and I got drafted into the Marine Corps, January 1966.
jdave
Thanks again, here's the threads on Freak Brothers:
http://headcomix.info/forum/index.php/topic,449.0.html
and Big Ass #1:
http://headcomix.info/forum/index.php/topic,636.0.html
As it says in my sig, I've got Obsessive-Possessive Disorder.
"... on cover stock we got from a paper reducer for 15 cents/pound in assorted lots."
Translation:
The covers are printed on other printers scrap. So paper weight (thickness) or finish (gloss) is probably not a reliable tell.
"The cloud defect is probably a blanket smash, which was corrected with blanket restorer."
Translation:
The "blanket" comes in contact with, and puts the image on the sheet.
A smash would be something that would compact the rubber blanket, causing low spots that don't transfer ink to the sheet.
Blanket restorer is a solvent like chemical that can be brushed on to the low spots, and swells the rubber. But this might not be uniform and may leave it's own artifacts in the ink.
Probably didn't last through the whole pressrun. Probably not a good tell.
"They were stapled on a foot-operated saddle sticher from the 1920s as needed. The operator simply slid the book over and nailed another staple."
Translation:
One stich at a time, positioned and held in place by hand.
Position and distance between stiches is probably not a reliable tell.
The yellow mark is actually a defect in the red pass.
Maybe another defect in the blanket?
I am not familier with the Davidson 233. But on some presses the blanket cylindar can be adjusted. Perhaps moving such a defect to the side of the shoe, then off the sheet?
The Davidson 233 was what's known as a duplicator press with a push-register system. It was never designed to print coated stock, much less do color registration; but it was all we had.
Our next press was a giant 36-inch Ebco made by the Electric Boat Company for only four years as they tried to diversify from making submarines after WWII. Since it was an "orphan" we got it cheap. It would print covers 4-up. The first runs were a disaster—the ancient rubber rollers disintegrated and had to be replaced. First edition Subvert may be distinguished by the hickies from those disintegrating rollers.
jdave
Thanks JDave.
So the Davidson was a single color press, only big enough for 1-up covers. (in the classic defination of 1 per sheet)
Please confirm for 50cent, that the Ebco "would print covers 4-up." means 4 per sheet.
Please confirm for me; Freak Bro 1 (1st print) covers were printed 1-up (1 per sheet)?
Rumer is that it was printed 2-up. Two versions of the "black tire" cover are known.
With or without an orange patch on the wall. (missing zip-a-tone)
http://www.ugcomix.info/guide/tells/0768tell.html
If printed 1-up, these would need to be 2 seperate printings. 2 diffrent plates for the gray ink.
I think i remember the Davidson now. The paper feed can not be moved left or right.
Plates are just rectangles of alluminum (no pre-punched holes), held onto the cylendar by a spring loaded bar with small spikes that punch their own holes into the ends of the plate. Registeration is a bitch.
Couldn't that also make the Freak Brothers #1 with the orange patch a part of the same run if something happened/damage to the area of black/gray (zip-a-tone) during the print run if all the gray tire versions were done on this 1-up press?
Also, from what I've read of Bruce's, he stated that the first print of Freak Brothers was done on the Davidson press and the later printings were done on an assumed 2-up (or actually as we now know probably a 4-up) press. This could make the rumored 2nd print (one with the orange patch, one without) actually just one of the 4 plates with the missing gray zip-a-tone (therefore making the covers with the orange box actually a 1 in 4 ratio)?
Dates of 1st printing via JK.
Hydrogen Bomb Funnies - 26 May 1970
Subvert Comics #1 - 7 Nov. 1970
Freak Brothers #1 - 1 Feb. 1971
So this may make Bruce's claim that the 1st print of FB #1 was done on the old DD 1-up press wrong. Of course it could have been ROP was using both presses at the same time and not just replaced the 1-up with the Ebco 4-up? J.David what's the story?
Zip-a-tone is added (or lost) in the art or paist-up stage.
That's before photography which is before plate making which is before presswork.
I beleave the orange patch came first.
JDave.
This might look obseive to you.
But is's a game to us, CSI.
Comix Science Investigation.
Comix Forensics.
CSI
Tahahahahahahahahahahaha
I have an uncut cover sheet of Freak Bros #1 here before me, run 1-up on the Davidson because we had not yet gotten the Ebco to feed properly. The tire and the ground are gray from a second screen burn on the black plate (ziptone was not often used on originals, because, due to the short depth of field of a process camera, it would look like bubbly mud). The frame next to Gilbert's signature is out of register. On the uncut sheet there is a small yellow square on the bottom of the back cover next to the fold that would likely be lost in the trim.
The second printing was done on the Ebco with either a second printing of Subvert,
the first printing of Armadillo, and two Freak Bros #1 at the bottom of the plate, both missing the overburned screen, or, more likely, one copy of Freak 1 without the screen with first printing of Rowlf, Mother's Oats #2 and reprint of Mother's Oats #1.
Because of our experience with the unexpectly slow sales of Hydrogen Bomb, we were overcautious with Freak Bros. Almost every plate after this contains two FB covers until we got the 24-inch two color Solna, when printing reverted to two-up.
The screen reappears with a reprint of Up From the Deep, Last Gasp's Slow Death 1, and 2-up Freak Bros. After that Gilbert colored in the tire by hand to make it a white wall, and the troublesome second burn was dispensed with.
Bruce Semens interviewed me and looked at this collection when all this remembered information was carved in granite; now it is carved in Swiss cheese and I have to go back to the archives.
Red box with R.Crumb was on first printing of BA #1, done on Davidson; left white in next edition, done with first Subvert on Ebco when the rollers were disintegrating.
Wow, years of trying to figure these two out and on this day it's all here (and now we know Bruce documented this many years ago but never released the info.).
So there was at least 2 printings of the gray tire Freak Brothers #1.
The Red Box Big Ass #1 is the first print.
Now to clear up the FB #1.
"The frame next to Gilbert's signature is out of register. On the uncut sheet there is a small yellow square on the bottom of the back cover next to the fold that would likely be lost in the trim."
Not sure what a frame is and what out of register looks like, can someone explain? I'm not sure which Shelton signature you're referring to (the one on the front or the one on the back?)
I don't have or have seen any yellow boxes on the back so they are probably lost in the trim.
Scan of the 1st prints for both FB #1 and BA #1 are posted in their threads.