What the FUG? Flame away, please...

[fishnuts]

...because I am listing items again this week in comix categories.  And I, again being frustrated with, have written words concerning the sloppy nature which the fUG  exhibits.  Previously and on other blog/forums I got slammed for speaking the truth about this subject, so I thot I'd let everyone know beforehand.  The lots begin this weekend. If you're friends with fogel, plead with  him to do better.  Omissions and mis-information do our hobby a disservice.  All I'm sayin' is, for example, it is an error to print that the cover  price of Complete Crumb #2 is $39.95 at the same time the book clearly states on the back cover that it is $35.00.  Now, that's sloppy. Didn't anyone look?

How many errors are too many?  I understand that it is a huge task to undertake and I appreciate that effort.  But, if you did a Guide,  wouldn't you want it to be the best Guide you could possibly make?  This first one fell short.  Who else finds that annoying?  And that a guide from almost 30 years ago is superior? 

Those of you that have been my wonderful customers know I have hit this topic several times. Apologies to those that will get irritated.
But I've been listing my comix on ebay since before this fUG was released, and since, almost each time I list, I find variances between this guide and fact-based reality.  Even this site has a large thread regarding omissions and changes that you all contribute to and in hopes that the next guide will be better.  I gave up trying to note them all in my copy...that is for your generation of comix fans...the 2nd wave of comix collectors.  Good luck with that.

Don't get me started on the values listed, which range too high to too low and many times in complete disagreement with the actual marketplace, based on my ebay sales, which I would figure typical of prices realized.  How many of you have bought comix from me that listed in the $30-$50 range for my opening bid of $9.87?  Plenty of you, is the answer. And...good for you!  I am thrilled you got one.  But what confidence can we have in a guide's value system that is sometimes  too high and at the same time, too low?  Do we make a purchase of a large dollar item just using this guide?  New collectors/buyers with no experience in the real marketplace may have no basis for which to make these  decisions except from a 'guide'.  Speculating in comix could be dangerously costly...

Peace & love, you guys

[50Cent #II (1st print)]

FN, I simply state that if you want a better guide you could simply help to improve it by posting your updates in this thread:
http://headcomix.info/forum/index.php?topic=439.0
I know you are quite knowledgeable in UG's, but to simply spend this time to complain rather than using your knowledge to help improve it.  If you know about specific error, simply post it (I know you said to leave it to us 2nd gen. UG collectors like myself, but I've been doing my part like no other).

[dr_s]

First, we all know Dan could have done a better job. However, my only real problem is that there is a big delay. As for prices, it's hard to say. Sorry Dan, Binky Brown is not a $75 book. However, on high grade stuff, I see that Sal (Amazing Adventures) is getting real money for stuff I would sell for junk. On rare stuff who knows. it seems every time I bid on stuff for resale or for my collection, the prices are very high on eBay. I remember paying over $200 for a newspaper from you that had Corben. There are people out there  who pay more than we think an item is worth. I know for a fact that books that sold on Heritage for $$$ have gone for bigger bucks in private sales. With no real track record of sales for ugs, the guide prices will not look right to everyone. However, if Dan can publish regularly, then we will see some order.

[Reverend]

About a year ago, for personal reasons, I began making an Excel spreadsheet of the data presented in Fogel's guide, entry by entry. When I was halfway through the Bs, I was surprised, not only by how many errors there were, stylistic and typographical alike, but also by how many omissions there were for the items listed (e.g., no publication date, no cover price).

In all fairness, I've been a copy editor and website designer for over a decade now, so perhaps my eye is more keen than most. Still, it seemed a very sloppy, very rushed publication. And, truth be told, I've barely ever used it.

[Brother J]

Wouldn't think of flaming you, fishnuts! Way too many good deals and quality books have come my way from you...

The Fogel has mistakes, but it is still invaluable to me as a UG collector. I wonder why more of the mistakes weren't caught? Did Fogel not have a fact-checker or proofreader look over the guide before putting it out? Hopefully the update will fix some of the problems without adding a bunch more.

[Reverend]

As an addendum to my previous post, I have to believe that many of us who have been in the hobby for awhile have been spoiled by Kennedy's guide in terms of sheer detail. We were looking for a "sequel," you could say, something that wasn't merely a price guide, but a reference guide, like Kennedy's was, as well. I don't think it's unfair to say that Fogel's effort fell way short of that mark. Point of fact is the passage that makes mention of Kennedy's guide and urges the reader to continue using it (quote not handy at the moment).

I think it's easier to swallow if you try not to think of Fogel's guide as a definitive reference, but what it is, a price guide.

[dr_s]

Bye the way, I spent several hours with Dan correcting errors in the gide. the one I liked best was the limited (HC) Head Comix - print run of 5, going in at $1,$2, and $3.

[bdcues]

I've been told, that when asked how he came up with the prices in his guide, Kennedy responed by saying that the guide price was the price that he would like to pay for that particular book. That doesn't make it a price guide as much as a glorified want list. There is too much missing and incorrect in Foguls guide and unless the supplement has new pricing for all the comics listed in the first one....it is still an out of date, incomplete list of some of the undergrounds. That being said, I wouldn't want the task of making a complete comprehensive guide either.

[dr_s]

It is not true. Kennedy took an average of prices from various sources. However, he and Jerry kept the prices conservative.  The funniest example of his averaging was for C comics. He made a trade with me, taking out C Comics 1 which I never heard of. He said it was 16 in the guide because he bought one from a book dealer for $35 and found one in a $1 bin. Of course I got it for $40 in trade. The feeling at the time was that Kennedy slowed down the market because his prices were too low. He had Zap 1 for $175 even thought he knew that I had sold 7 or 8 for $250 each. That was because he knew that most people charged $100 or less at the time. He of course charged more than guide for everything.

[over40artist]

Fnuts, you know I love you and I have gotten my share of $9.87 comix from ya. Like that 1st print of Hydrogen Bomb, the NM 2nd/4th of Snatch #2 and the full run of Comix Book. I was also lucky enough to pick up Gothic Blimp Works #4, 6 & 7 from you for an average of $45.

I know there are a lot of problems with the FUG, but remember that Dan refused to steal information from the Kennedy Guide when compiling his book (right, Arnie?), which meant his team really did have to dig up all that shit on their own. Hopefully, as future editions are published, the FUG will get better and better, especially with all of the contributions that have been made by members on this board.

If I were a veteran collector and dealer like yourself, I might feel the same way as you do about the FUG. But as a relative newbie to UG collecting, I have found it invaluable for what it did provide as opposed to what it didn't. Kennedy still rules supreme as a reference book, but it sucks as a price guide in 2006-2008. I would've been completely lost when it comes to modern-day values without the FUG (despite the too low/too high issues).

Before the FUG came out, I'd pay twice book value for some stupid comic (beating out some other idiot bidder) just because I liked the cover art. I didn't know any better! The FUG helped me stop doing that shit.

I am awaiting this summer's Fogel supplement with bated breath, because I am anxious to see what it offers, though I am cautioning myself that it might be a bit of a letdown. In any case, I am sure that I will also find it invaluable to future collecting. In fact, just as the FUG did, it will doubtlessly open my eyes to collecting comix that I had previously overlooked or did not know about at all.

I don't blame you for feeling the way you feel about it, though, since UG comix have been a part of your life for 30+ years. But you still have many more years to go before you finally sell that fine collection of Plymells. If I were you, I'd be rooting for the FUG (warts and all) to continue attracting new collectors to the genre and raising awareness of UG comix as a legitimate long-term investment.

[Visitor Q]

Since we are on the subject I will just go ahead and say it, I think Fogel's guide in general is the worst thing that has happen to Underground Comix, infact I wish it would have never came out. For me all it did was drive up the market. Great for sellers, bad for collectors. I was happy with the original guide that told me more information about the comix and let the seller decide the book's value because as we all know, nothing is worth anything unless someone has the cash in hand willing to pay for it.

I commend Fogel's efforts and I will continue to buy any installments he comes out with but that's about it. I follow the guide pricing now because I have to, it has more or less dictated the market on these books whether I like it or not.

Just my 2 cents and I'm sure people will disagree but its how I feel.

Jason

[stage52]

 Most of the time I open up the Fug, look at a listing (if its even in there),  Check out the prices,  Laugh, and then go back to the reality thats really confronts me in finding those morsels of UG literature for me  to possess "My precious".